3. Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
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Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
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Hi All,


I was hoping if someone could take a look and see if I have a case to appeal?

I clearly misjudged the start of the bus box,(being a very wet dark evening with limited visibility) but stopped very briefly to let someone out of the car and then continued my Journey.

Please see the PCN below, with a youtube link for the video and a link to Google street view.















Is there any hope in appealing this?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 04:53:51 pm by Jay Sparxx »
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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #1 on: »
This is open and shut, send this:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I contest liability for this PCN on the basis of a procedural impropriety. The PCN is required to state that payment must be made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, but the PCN in this instance wrongly states that payment must be made within 28 days beginning with the date of the alleged contravention.

As you allege the contravention took place on 18 October and the PCN was served on 31 October, you have cut the 28 day period short by two weeks.

As the PCN does is not substantially compliant because it does not convey the 28 day period that it should, there has been a procedural impropriety. This means the penalty charge must be cancelled irrespective of any other matters.

Yours faithfully,


Obviously you want to send this via the council website, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If they reject we'll sort out the tribunal appeal for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 31, 2023, 09:58:16 pm
This is open and shut, send this:

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I contest liability for this PCN on the basis of a procedural impropriety. The PCN is required to state that payment must be made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, but the PCN in this instance wrongly states that payment must be made within 28 days beginning with the date of the alleged contravention.

As you allege the contravention took place on 18 October and the PCN was served on 31 October, you have cut the 28 day period short by two weeks.

As the PCN does is not substantially compliant because it does not convey the 28 day period that it should, there has been a procedural impropriety. This means the penalty charge must be cancelled irrespective of any other matters.

Yours faithfully,


Obviously you want to send this via the council website, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. If they reject we'll sort out the tribunal appeal for you.

Hi CP8759,

Thank you for looking at this for me and providing me with a response to send to the Council.

I did notice you stated the PCN was served on 31 October, which I believe was typo. However, I did correct this to the 27 October as per the PCN.

I've challenged this online and taken a screenshot of the confirmation page, so will keep you posted on their response.

Once again, thank you for your help.

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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Jay Sparxx on November 01, 2023, 10:36:16 am
I did notice you stated the PCN was served on 31 October, which I believe was typo. However, I did correct this to the 27 October as per the PCN.
It's not a typo, a PCN issued on 27 October is deemed to be served two working days later, i.e. on 31 October. This is because you don't get it the day they put it in the post (and "served" is not the same as "issued").

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, but as a general rule if you think something is a typo it's best to ask rather than to make an assumption. We are not infallible by any stretch of the imagination, but we do normally proofread draft wording.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 10:06:24 pm
Quote from: Jay Sparxx on November 01, 2023, 10:36:16 am
I did notice you stated the PCN was served on 31 October, which I believe was typo. However, I did correct this to the 27 October as per the PCN.
It's not a typo, a PCN issued on 27 October is deemed to be served two working days later, i.e. on 31 October. This is because you don't get it the day they put it in the post (and "served" is not the same as "issued").

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, but as a general rule if you think something is a typo it's best to ask rather than to make an assumption. We are not infallible by any stretch of the imagination, but we do normally proofread draft wording.

Thanks for the clarification, it now makes sense, sorry.

Shame I've sent it off now, but as you say, it shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'll keep you posted on their response.

Thanks once again.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #5 on: »
Hi Guys,

So seems like they have rejected my representation:



http://

http://

http://


Please advise on the next steps?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 12:51:58 pm by Jay Sparxx »
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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #6 on: »
That NOR is rubbish.  We usually advise: I rely upon my formal representations and will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack.  Choose ground: procedural impropriety.

If you want representation, I am happy to do so.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on December 04, 2023, 03:38:46 pm
That NOR is rubbish.  We usually advise: I rely upon my formal representations and will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack.  Choose ground: procedural impropriety.

If you want representation, I am happy to do so.

Hi, Thanks for your help.

It's my first time making an appeal, so just to clarify, do I just state " I rely upon my formal representations and will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack" in section 6 of the appeal form and select the "procedural impropriety" box in section 5 and post?

Happy to proceed with your representation.

Thanks

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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #8 on: »
Yes. Ground: procedural impropriety.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 01:51:13 pm by Hippocrates »
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #9 on: »
PMs sent.  Please ignore the first one as the cold has got to the little grey cells!
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on December 06, 2023, 01:38:27 pm
PMs sent.  Please ignore the first one as the cold has got to the little grey cells!

Thanks. Replied to PM.
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Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #11 on: »
Replied via PM.  What a mean PCN!  As well as the weather.
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Like Like x 1 View List
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #12 on: »
Jay -is Hiipocrates representing you as if not I will? I have already won a bus lane 28 day wording PCN. You have more chance if represented. email mrmustard@zoho.com

Added: Just seen the PM. Please email me and I will start the Appeal on line. I will need an unredacted copy of the Notice of Rejection.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 10:26:08 am by mrmustard »
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I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #13 on: »
No worries.  Being a Gemini, I am always confused.  This is a bus stop case though, not a bus lane case?  :o  ;D
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: Waltham Forest - 47 Stopped in Bus stop - Hoe St E17
« Reply #14 on: »
Drat, so it is. I will have to reread the pcn against the relevant legislation. CP8759 days the time limit is wrong therefore it will be. I would have woken up once I got the papers on my desk. (Taurus on the cusp with Gemini).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 06:06:35 pm by mrmustard »
Logged
I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
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