Author Topic: Waltham Forest - 12w Parked in a residents space - York Road E10 - Covered sign  (Read 1972 times)

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The PCN is sat at £195 at the moment, keep an eye on https://walthamocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/ and as soon as it goes up to £204, you can download form TE9, fill it in (remember the applicant is the council, not you) and tick the box to say you never got the NTO, then email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.

When the amount due on the council website drops back down to £130, it means the Notice to Owner has been reissued. Let us know when this happens (you'll need to check once every 10 days or so after you've emailed TEC) and we'll help with a representation.

Any questions please ask.

Cost has just dropped down to £130 on the councils website. I'll keep my eye out for the new NTO, but just letting you know for for any support you can offer on representation. Huge thanks in advance to all of you helping here.

Please post up both sides of the original PCN, the one they attached to the car.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Thank you everyone for your responses and insight. The Letter wasn't that clear to my layman eyes, so good to know things are moving in the right direction. Was just expecting to see a change on the PCN council page, not a letter.

Please post up both sides of the original PCN, the one they attached to the car.

Bugger I don't have that. Or pretty sure I don't. It was destroyed by my toddler. I'll check if I took pictures of it, but will this hold me back significantly?

Bugger I don't have that. Or pretty sure I don't. It was destroyed by my toddler. I'll check if I took pictures of it, but will this hold me back significantly?
It's not essential but it would be handy if we could see it.

Also what did you say in your original representation? If you don't have a copy, just recreate it from memory as best you can.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Thanks alot CP,

Here's the NTO now received and i'll recreate the original representation as best i can in the next post.

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Frustratingly, I can’t find my saved document for this representation, so I’ve tried to recreate what I sent below. I’ll add pictures I added to the appeal too + one annotated to represent where i parked and where the covered sign was, you can also see the visible sign across the street that i wrongly followed. I hope this helps your guidance and again, let me thank you for your support here.

I referenced the below parts of the traffic act in some sort of similar wording below, whilst referencing the specifics of this incident.
Inadequate Signage Visibility: According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, it is a legal requirement that parking signage is clearly visible and provides motorists with sufficient notice of parking restrictions. Upon entering the location, I could not identify any clear and conspicuous signage indicating the parking restrictions or the requirement to display a valid parking permit. The signage in question was either absent, obscured, or placed in a manner that made it virtually impossible for any reasonable driver to notice and comprehend the parking regulations in effect.

Non-Compliance with Regulatory Standards: The Department for Transport's Traffic Signs Manual stipulates clear guidelines for parking signage, ensuring that they meet specific standards in terms of visibility, positioning, and legibility. It is my contention that the signage at the location in question fails to meet these standards, as it did not provide clear, visible, and unambiguous information about the parking restrictions. This lack of compliance with the regulatory standards raises concerns about the validity of the PCN.

I also described how the changing nature of the local parking restrictions have made it very difficult to understand the rules. As on a 50m stretch of road there are 4 signs and 3 are mon-sat 10-4pm and one is Mon-fri 10-4pm (it was this one that I looked at as it was clearly visible 2 metres away from my car, albeit on the other side of the road. All signs in this area were mon-fri 10-4pm about 1-2 years ago, then changes started to occur. The street where this occurred is a small connecting road between two residential streets, I felt it was reasonable to assume all parking bays were consistent with each other and as the other closest sign for my side was complete blocked by trees, and as the next one was about 150ft away, and unvisable from my parking location, I made this assumption.

As a side to my representation, I sent a information request to enquire when the signs were last checked for visibility. They responded it was earlier that year and it was felt that they met standards. As of today 6 months later, the sign is now even more covered by overgrown branches, so continued disregard for responsibility.



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Hi all,
Wondering if anyone has any suggestions for my representation since receiving the new NTO? Be a big help if so!
Thanks

Wasn't this sign https://maps.app.goo.gl/mMnZsKXjGkSeG4HY8 just behind where you parked? Is it still there?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Wasn't this sign https://maps.app.goo.gl/mMnZsKXjGkSeG4HY8 just behind where you parked? Is it still there?

No, it must have been removed. Here's a pic of the post taken from my car at the time. You can see the black post to the left as I enter the road

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That's really interesting though, as gmaps streetview is from april 2022 and the sign across from where I parked shows as mon-sat, but is now the only mon-fri one on the street. So within two years it's gone from mon-fri to mon-sat back to mon-fri.
They've also removed the one you spotted on the left hand side as you enter the road.
I also notice that the tree is covering the sign the year before too.

Can you go back and get us a picture showing this angle? https://maps.app.goo.gl/iQTY7Cgc8XR3Vx5n8

If you can, that would make the case open and shut.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Wasn't this sign https://maps.app.goo.gl/mMnZsKXjGkSeG4HY8 just behind where you parked? Is it still there?

No, it must have been removed. Here's a pic of the post taken from my car at the time. You can see the black post to the left as I enter the road
You can see a small unpainted part of the pole where the sign should be. Obviously the pole was painted after the sign was put up so they missed a bit.

There's fault on both sides here, yours and the council's, so if it got to adjudication based upon what is known and how it's been presented to date in your initial reps then IMO the outcome would not be open and shut.

You parked; you knew you were within a marked parking place and yet you did not look diligently for an applicable traffic sign but instead apparently looked across the road where a parking place had a Mon-Fri restriction and guessed/hoped/wished this applied to where you were parked.

Your initial reps included the following:

..on a 50m stretch of road there are 4 signs and 3 are mon-sat 10-4pm and one is Mon-fri 10-4pm (it was this one that I looked at as it was clearly visible 2 metres away from my car, albeit on the other side of the road. All signs in this area were mon-fri 10-4pm about 1-2 years ago, then changes started to occur. The street where this occurred is a small connecting road between two residential streets, I felt it was reasonable to assume all parking bays were consistent with each other.....??

'There are 4 signs' So why did you consult one which, as the holder of a driving licence, you are presumed to know did not apply to where you were parked? And when did the knowledge of 4 signs i.e. 3 within your bay, come to your attention? Your whole defence is based upon the invisibility of a sign, but if you have acknowledged knowing it was there before you parked, where does this leave your defence? I'm simply looking at what you've already submitted.

From the council's perspective, the CEO's traffic sign photo shows the one further from your car which implicitly accepts that the visibility of the nearer was compromised for their purposes, so why not for yours? And the fact it was the further as opposed to furthest is because there were only 2 in situ(not 3 as you stated in your reps) and GSV shows that a traffic sign had been displayed closer to your car in plain sight for some time and IMO as regards signs this should be your focus.
The third, middle, sign is a very recent addition because when the parking place was introduced in 2012 the council sited only 2 signs, one at either end. However, in 2020 the council decided to erect a third sign on a pre-existing column, paradoxically at a time when the overgrowth from the garden evergreen tree immediately behind - whose relentless march from within a garden to enveloping the footway can be seen in GSV - was guaranteed to obscure it. The sign behind your car has been in situ continuously since 2012 except for a short period in 2019, therefore the council, quite correctly, attach importance to its presence because it is the first one in the bay and alerts a driver to the restrictions. Its absence for a short period could perhaps be excused because there are 2 other signs, however, when the closer of these is itself obscured, in this case by a tree, this leaves only one sign potentially visible, nearly 40 metres away. The first sign was missing on the day...why has the council allowed this to be is a line of defence I would consider for formal reps hoping as a minimum to elicit a nonsense rejection which could swing an adjudicator to your side.

But there are some who would think: you parked; you failed to make any attempt to look for an applicable traffic sign; it's your fault.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 11:59:23 am by H C Andersen »

But there are some who would think: you parked; you failed to make any attempt to look for an applicable traffic sign; it's your fault.
As far as I can work out, there are three applicable signs for the bay where he parked, one was missing (pending the photo I asked for), one was obscured by vegetation, and one was far away and out of sight.

A motorist who parks and gets out of his car is required to look for signs that are visible, he is not required to walk out of sight of his car (after all a CEO might come along and issue a PCN) nor is he required to look behind leaves, branches, bushes and so on.

If none of the signs were visible, the contravention did not occur. The fact that the motorist might have incorrectly relied on an irrelevant sign on the other side of the road would not alter that.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Can you go back and get us a picture showing this angle? https://maps.app.goo.gl/iQTY7Cgc8XR3Vx5n8

If you can, that would make the case open and shut.

Sorry for the delay in response but photos taken last night attached.



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