3. ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
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Author Topic: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill  (Read 3962 times)

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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #15 on: »
Thank you that is very helpful

Will be going down to take some pictures tomorrow
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #16 on: »
Quick question

Is there a height stipulation in the signage regulations (i.e. the distance between the bottom of the sign and ground level) or has the DfT granted a free pass for all the ULEZ signage exempting them from adhering to any sort of regulation whatsoever?
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: BH1001 on November 11, 2023, 05:50:42 pm
Quick question

Is there a height stipulation in the signage regulations (i.e. the distance between the bottom of the sign and ground level) or has the DfT granted a free pass for all the ULEZ signage exempting them from adhering to any sort of regulation whatsoever?

Hey BH, I'm in the process to appeal as well, but I find the ULEZ sign authorisation and the TSRGD 2016 is rather confusing as well. I think in the 2022 authorisation, ULEZ sign need to follow it's equivalant signs to the standard that's designated in both the TSRGD 2016 and ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984. This would be a hard battle man, the standard are set a bit vague, at least in my understanding.
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #18 on: »
Yes well it wouldn't surprise me if the regulations were left intentionally vague, especially the new authorisation for TfL

I've been over to take some pictures of the road and the signage and I think the latter is possibly defective.

The bottom of the sign is over 10 mtrs from ground level and therefore it is very difficult to see it clearly from the driver's perspective when turning right from Skid Hill Lane into Sheepbarn Lane, and because of the oblique angle of the sign and the height of it, it is impossible to see it at all once you've joined the road, (unless you are driving a convertible!)

There are no warning signs to be seen when approaching the junction along Skid Hill Lane so drivers are relying solely on that one sign that has been put up on the opposite side of the road, 10+ metres high and at an oblique angle when viewed from the road you are joining the ULEZ from - please see link to pictures

https://imgur.com/a/x6LoZOK

If anyone could possibly help with the best way to put the appeal together on these grounds that would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2023, 05:21:59 pm by BH1001 »
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #19 on: »
Quote from: BH1001 on November 12, 2023, 05:20:16 pm
Yes well it wouldn't surprise me if the regulations were left intentionally vague, especially the new authorisation for TfL

I've been over to take some pictures of the road and the signage and I think the latter is possibly defective.

The bottom of the sign is over 10 mtrs from ground level and therefore it is very difficult to see it clearly from the driver's perspective when turning right from Skid Hill Lane into Sheepbarn Lane, and because of the oblique angle of the sign and the height of it, it is impossible to see it at all once you've joined the road, (unless you are driving a convertible!)

There are no warning signs to be seen when approaching the junction along Skid Hill Lane so drivers are relying solely on that one sign that has been put up on the opposite side of the road, 10+ metres high and at an oblique angle when viewed from the road you are joining the ULEZ from - please see link to pictures

https://imgur.com/a/x6LoZOK

If anyone could possibly help with the best way to put the appeal together on these grounds that would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck with your appeal, hope you can beat the blood sucking TFL and the dictator mayor!
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote
The bottom of the sign is over 10 mtrs from ground level
You sure of that !
10 metres is 32 feet; a double-decker bus is 14 feet, so more than double the height of a London bus. Something wrong somewhere !
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #21 on: »
Oh yes well spotted - sorry I meant feet not metres  :D

That makes a bit if a difference, but would 10 feet not be too much either?
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: BH1001 on November 12, 2023, 07:02:54 pm
Oh yes well spotted - sorry I meant feet not metres  :D

That makes a bit if a difference, but would 10 feet not be too much either?
It's too high for me, but I'm not an adjudicator. Problem is if the sign is too low, a lorry or bus will obscure it, if too high, the motorist will miss seeing it !
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #23 on: »
So is there nothing in the guidance that stipulates how high or low the sign needs to be?  I looked but couldn't find anything ...
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #24 on: »
Whilst there may be nothing, councils and also TfL are under a duty to place such signage such as to clearly convey to drivers the restriction. Of course, whether signs are adequate or not is subjective. For TfL all is perfection, so you'd have to put the argument on inadequacy to an adjudicator.
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #25 on: »
Okay well then wish me luck
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: BH1001 on November 12, 2023, 10:16:31 pm
Okay well then wish me luck
OK then. Good Luck !
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote from: BH1001 on November 06, 2023, 08:52:08 am
I will go over and take some pictures

Is there any defence regarding unlawful signage?
No, but there's a defence of inadequate signage. I suggest you show us the photos you've taken so we can advise you on the strength of your case.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #28 on: »
Hi

Thanks for the reply

Unfortunately I have already submitted my representations as it was getting a bit tight for time.

The link to the pictures is here

https://imgur.com/a/x6LoZOK 
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Re: ULEZ non payment PCN Main Road Biggin Hill
« Reply #29 on: »
I don't think the photos have been taken at a particularly helpful angle, certainly the 2nd photo showing the driver's view appear to have been taken from a "convenient" angle and an adjudicator could well make an adverse inference from that.

If you want to take this to the tribunal, go back to the junction and stand next to the "Skill Hill Lane" sign here and get some wide-angled photos showing the whole width of the road.

As far as I can work out, the offside sign that should be visible to the driver emerging from the junction wouldn't be visible because it's turned 90 degrees and is now parallel to the road, but you've not taken any photos to illustrate that point. If that particular sign is not visible to someone pulling out of the junction, that's your strongest point.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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