Author Topic: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian etc  (Read 136 times)

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duncedunce

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Hi
I've just been informed by my lease hire company that they received *today* (8 May) a representation for a parking penalty charge for failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone on 20 February 2024. I've not seen the PCN yet, but they've let the council know I was the driver.

Is there a time limit for the council to serve such a PCN? This seems to be over 2 months since the alleged offence.

It's annoying. I didn't see/take on board the signs, and it was 10 mins before the end of the restricted period (it's one of the school ones and I don't normally go that way, so didn't realise). But I'm bang to rights unless there's a time limit to serve the PCN, I guess.

Thanks for reading

[Edit: getting the "P" right in PCN!]
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 05:08:56 pm by duncedunce »

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Incandescent

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There is a time limit, but it would seem the lease hire company did not submit representations on the basis of "PCNserved out of time", but merely submitted their usual lease company representation.

Not sure what you mean by this: -
Quote
"they received *today* (8 May) a representation for a parking penalty charge"
Surely they just received a PCN which they responded to.
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duncedunce

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Not sure what you mean by this: -
Quote
"they received *today* (8 May) a representation for a parking penalty charge"
Surely they just received a PCN which they responded to.
Thank you for responding @Incandescent. It was the wording used by the leasing company. Here it is in full:

Quote
Dear XXXX

For your information we have today received and processed a representation for a parking charge involving your lease vehicle.

To avoid any risk of the cost escalating we recommend that you review the PCN details and evidence via the London Borough of Sutton website with the details below:

PCN Number: XXXX
Vehicle Registration Number: XXXX

Should you be satisfied with the details of the charge, please settle this directly with the issuer via their website.

In line with your contract we have provided your name and postal address to London Borough of Sutton who will write to you directly. If you would like to appeal the charge, please wait until you receive the notice through the post in your name before submitting your appeal. If you have not received this notice within 3 weeks of this email, please contact us via email at XXXX.

If the address below is incorrect, please let us know as soon as possible.
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX

Please be advised [we] do not hold these PCN details on file and will be unable to provide further information on the specific offence details at this time.

I, too, guess they've just responded to a PCN by providing my details (as the leasee), for the council to pursue.

[EDIT: though it isn't a "parking charge" as set out in the email, it's a penalty charge, but that makes little difference. Looking it up, the penalty code is likely to be 53 "Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian and cycle zone." but the website doesn't give that detail, so I will only know once the council contact me]
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 07:00:21 pm by duncedunce »

Incandescent

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I suggest, while you wait for a PCN to be served, that you contact the lease company to point out that the PCN was served Out-of-Time, therefore it was an unlawful PCN, and they should again contact the council to point this out and request the PCN is cancelled.
The basic principle of English law is that one cannot break the law when enforcing it.
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duncedunce

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Thank you @Incandescent

I've emailed my lease company back explaining the PCN was out of time and therefore not a lawful PCN. I've asked them to put that challenge to the council.  I've asked to be copied into or forwarded the follow up email to the council.

Hopefully, the lease company will do that. But they may not.

I'll update this thread on whether they do or don't contact the council about it being an out of time PCN.

duncedunce

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Ugh

Response from the lease company:
Quote
Good afternoon XXXX,
 
The PCN is valid.
 
The PCN gets issued to your lease company first, then transfers to ourselves, which then transfers to yourself.
 
The counter date resets each time this gets transferred.
 
Kind regards

XXXX

I don't really want to get into a slanging match with the lease company. As I see it, they had a right to challenge that the PCN was valid, but they have decided not to do so.

Grrr

Any thoughts while I'm waiting for the PCN to come to me?

cp8759

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@duncedunce you don't need to get into any slanging match with the lease company, if the PCN to the lease company was unlawful then the PCN to you is also unlawful.

Therefore when you get your own PCN, you can challenge it on the ground that the PCN served on the registered keeper was out of time. Frankly it's much better to do this yourself and keep the lease company out of the picture, as lease companies have a propensity to mess things up.

If you look up the PCN on the council website it might give you a clue of whether it's been reissued to you.

Once you have the PCN, let us know and we'll draft a representation for you.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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duncedunce

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Many thanks for the advice from @Incandescent and @cp8759 on my previous thread here: Time limit to serve PCN? - Sutton (London) - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian etc

I received the copy of the PCN yesterday, addressed to me. Copy below.






I don't dispute I was the driver, and that the images on the website are of the vehicle. The signage was in place (Streetview is very old so does not show the signs), I was just unfamiliar with the route due to road closures in the area and ended up going down that road in an attempt to get to the route I know, not seeing the signage as I was concentrating on other dangers around the road.

Google streetview

Images linked to the PCN (there's a brief video, too, but it doesn't add anything)





However, I do feel aggrieved that the alleged offience was on 20 February 2024, and it has taken the Council two and a half months to serve the PCN on my lease company (last week), who then redirected to me. This seems an excessive time to me and unreasonable.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 12:45:28 pm by duncedunce »

cp8759

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@duncedunce please don't make additional threads, we have a one-case-one-thread rule to ensure we can be as efficient as possible when giving advice.

The representation for this is very simple:

Dear London Borough of Sutton,

I challenge liability on the basis that the penalty charge notice has been served out of time.

Yours faithfully,

This will get the discount reoffered and will buy you a few weeks, but there's no rush so I wouldn't send this until the end of next week. As long as the representation is made within the discount period, the discount is almost invariably reoffered when the council issues a rejection. Make sure to submit it online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

In the meantime I think we need to establish exactly what's gone on, so please contact the lease company as follows:

Dear Lease Company,

I am in the process of appealing PCN SU8012499A; in order to support my appeal please could you send me a copy of the penalty charge notice you recieved?

Yours faithfully,

Or if you can call them up and get them to email it to you that works too. My main concern is that we've not actually had sight of the PCN served on the lease company, also it might be that the lease company is not the registered keeper. It's possible the car is registered to a finance company that got the first PCN and then transferred liability to your lease company.

The good thing is the longer the chain back to the registered keeper, the greater the chances of the council having messed things up.

Also, please post up the terms and conditions of your lease agreement, depending on the wording there might be an additional ground of appeal.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

duncedunce

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Thank you @cp8759. Apologies for the additional thread and thank you for tidying it up.

I'll use your suggested representations wording to the Council - following their instructions - at the end of next week. The date of notice was 13th, so in theory I have until 27th to make representations (I thought notices sent by post are deemed served 2 business days later, but that's not an argument I need to get into), but I'll submit late on the 24th.

I'll message the lease company tomorrow asking for a copy of the PCN they received. They responded within a couple of hours last time, so if I don't get a response by midday Monday, I'll chase by phone.

I'll dig through my lease agreement and post a redacted version here.

I have a copy of the V5C and it has the name and address of the lease company in the Registered Keeper section.

Many thanks again.

cp8759

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I have a copy of the V5C and it has the name and address of the lease company in the Registered Keeper section.
That's excellent, once we have the PCN served on the registered keeper we should be able to confirm this will be open and shut on appeal.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order