Author Topic: Corporation St., Derby PCN Being in Bus Lane: what constitutes 'proof' ?  (Read 190 times)

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Hi All,
Have just joined so be gentle.
Derby City Council served a PCN 34J on me citing their video evidence. I live in Trafford and was my first time driving through Derby city centre and it came as a big surprise. I've appealed to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal on two grounds:
1) The council's video evidence would be insufficient evidence in a court of law. It does not show my car passing the alleged 'buses and taxis only' restriction signs. It was shot from 100 yards away with the camera pointing directly at the front of my car so the so-called signs were facing in the same direction. Nothing else in the video indicates that I was in contravention - it looks just like a normal two-way street with a couple of buses on it;
2) There is a systematic problem with the alleged signage and markings meaning that far too many drivers have been unfairly ticketed. The Council has failed to convey the up-coming restriction early enough for reasonable drivers to act to avoid it;

My question is just about point 1: the Council have added another video to their evidence which is a Driver's Eye View of the scene as you come up to the alleged Bus Gate. But it is a piece of library footage shot on 21/04/2026, 4 months after my incident occurred. Does the Tribunal require proof to a legal standard? In other words, video taken at the actual time that shows my car with my number plate and the restriction signs all in the same shot?

This is a high standard of proof because the signs may have been defaced or covered up when I drove past and the council would be at fault.

I'll come back to point 2 later - bit short of time right now.
Thank in advance to anyone with advice.

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Adjudicators mostly accept evidence of signage if library shots are reasonably up to date. Sometimes they do side with appellants anyway with videos taken from the 'wrong' side.

Let's see the materials. 

What is virtually certain is that Derby council will not accept any reps, so if you want to fight the PCN, you will have to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal with the full PCN penalty in play, but that is all, there are no additional costs whatsoever, and, of course, if you win you pay nothing.

The evidence of the contravention is the video, so if it doesn't show any signs passed, they must show that the signs were in position on the day of the contravention. Many councils make a complete mess of doing this, and the appellant wins, but a lot does depend on the adjudicator. As SFM says, photos of several years ago may not be considered good evidence.

Also forget the criminal test of "beyond all reasonable doubt"; it is the civil law test of "on the balance of probabilities" which the adjudicator will test the case against.

Thanks for the responses.

Here's the video which Derby City Council are using as evidence:

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...and the images they picked from it...

Image Photographs Copy in the Privateseagull's images album
ImgBB · ibb.co


You will see that as I come off the roundabout there is a taxi between me and the bus. The taxi was a distraction for sure. Buses, taxis and cycles were unrestricted so he was alright but, since it shoved itself in front of me from the left I got put off by having to slow down and watch him. I was a stranger to the place and, ironically, the taxi just made it feel like a normal road so on I went on oblivious.

Hope this helps paint the picture.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2026, 05:58:39 pm by Private Seagull »

Library images/video from Derby City Council used against my Appeal:

Photos taken 2 months before the incident:
Image Library photos 3 in the Privateseagull's images album
ImgBB · ibb.co


Drivers Eye video taken 4 months after the incident:
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Sorry to say it, but the advance warning sign reduces the impact of any reps you may submit.

However, their video shows how venal and rapacious they are, as they couldn't be bothered to install the camera so that it showed you passing the sign at the entrance to the buses-only exit from the roundabout.

So I suggest you submit reps against the PCN stating that their evidence, (the video), doesn't show you passing any signs barring access to the street. Please be aware that there is no right to be reoffered the discount, so if they reject, they may not re-offer it. However, by not re-offering the discount, it becomes an absolute and total no-brainer to then register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. They will then have the PITA of having to prepare an evidence pack and prove you did pass a sign, plus they must pay the adjudication fee.

So, really, it is all about your attitude to risk. Here is what the Earl of Montrose wrote; -

"He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who fears to put it to the touch
To win, or lose it all"
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Nicely put, Incandescent.

My Appeal is in and my hearing is on 08/07/2026. I'm going to fight this all the way. Derby City Council have form - a *lot* of form - on this particular street over the last 4 years. In the last 11 months alone they have made over £415,000 in fines from over 11,900 motorists. Before that period the figures were even worse. They made negligible changes to the layout and signage in March 2025 despite all the complaints and press coverage and calls for an investigation by the RAC etc. This is just plain *wrong*. The layout has systemic errors for whatever reason so I'm appealing on that basis using the stats for support. I hate this injustice.

I'll post the statistics soon.

One point about the Driver's Eye video: it does show two 'straight-on' arrows marked on the road in the outside lane of Full Street as you approach the roundabout. Ambiguous at best, misleading at worst.

It's no use just appealing on the stats, you have to show how crap their signage is. They must comply for adequacy under Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996

Have a read: -
These Regulations prescribe the procedure to be followed by local authorities in England and Wales for making the main types of traffic and parking orders under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984...
legislation.gov.uk


So you need to do some homework and tease out the detail ofv why people have complained before.