Author Topic: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31  (Read 1349 times)

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Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #15 on: »
Does the box extend too far past the corner?
https://goo.gl/maps/VEUMv2EhCVRdR17d9

or is it substantially compliant?

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #16 on: »
Doesn't the second camera view in the video show me entering the box?

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #17 on: »
Reminder:
The PCN was issued 13/7
PCN received 23/7
Requested DVD from TFL 24/7. Will take up to 14 days; On hold until 7/8
7/8 rang TFL to inform them that DVD not recd. Told that it can take ’14 working days’
Received DVD 11/8

Not sure when the discount period ends or if I have a case. After watching the video, this seems rather harsh. I was not ignoring the box but I was trapped by the pre-emptive stop of a vehicle in front of me. I tried to keep moving but it seems I came to a full stop for 5 seconds. I did not prevent anyone from turning or using a different lane

From TFL website:

PCN status history

10 August 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received (25/08/2023)
N/A

08 August 2023
On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (23/08/2023)
N/A

08 August 2023
On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (23/08/2023)
N/A
07 August 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received
N/A

24 July 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received (07/08/2023)
N/A

13 July 2023

PCN Batched
N/A


Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #18 on: »
Incandescent is correct they cannot say why you entered the box nor what prevented you from exiting so they had no reason to believe a contravention occurred

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #19 on: »
Incandescent is correct they cannot say why you entered the box nor what prevented you from exiting so they had no reason to believe a contravention occurred
Like you I stopped the video after the OP's car left the box, but there is a second video on the same file taken from a birds eye camera. However, I do have my doubts about this use of two cameras as there is no link between them in terms of the reg number of the vehicle.

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #20 on: »
If there is a reasonable chance of having the PCN cancelled, I can fight on. Obviously, I do not want to lose the discount, though I find the contravention harsh and quite possibly unjustified
I don't know if there is any mileage in the length of the junction box, mentioned above, the fact that the car stopped rolling for onlly 5 seconds, was only half in the box, or the fact that the situation was created by a preceding car which I could not see nor have any control
It is not clear when the discount period ends, i.e. when I have to make a decision whether to go double-or-nothing

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #21 on: »
The birds-eye camera shows a contravention. The car drives into the box behind another one that then stops clear of the YBJ, leaving the car behind having to stop "due to the presence of stationary vehicles"  HOwever whether this tein camera approach is legal I'm not sure. If the times on each camera match together, then an adjudicatoe may well rule the PCN is valid, (sorry to have to say it !)

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #22 on: »
Sorry.  The latter part of the video reveals all.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #23 on: »
Though, as Incandescent points out, there is no number plate shown in the second, bird's eye video.
The first video does not show the target car entering the junction box or why; the second video shows a non-specific car being forced to stop for 5 seconds due to a preceding car stopping short, preventing the car in question from clearing the box which he reasonably would have been able to do

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #24 on: »
@gumph69 I suggest you make a representation based on everything included in your post of 10:14:24 pm yesterday, you don't want to deny TFL the opportunity to mess up the rejection.

That being said, the video is good enough because you can use the timestamps from the two cameras to match up the bird's eye view to the right VRM.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #25 on: »
These are my proposed representations. It is not clear when the discount period ends but, to be safe, I should probbaly submit this tonight. If anyone has any comments or suggestions for improvements, please let me know
Thank you


I would like to make representations against this PCN
I barely recall this day 5 weeks ago but have now seen the relevant video. I was travelling within the speed limit along with the flow of traffic along the A23, Streatham High Rd
As I entered the T-junction of Sunnyhill Rd, I focused left and right as there were cars on both sides turning onto and from the A road. When I entered the junction box, traffic was flowing and there was no stationary vehicle in front of me. I entered the box in reasonable anticipation that the car in front of me would leave me with sufficient space and my exit would be clear.
Suddenly, the vehicle 2cars in front of me suddenly stopped even though there was enough space in front of him to fit another entire vehicle. This caused the car immediately in front of me to stop, blocking my exit from the intersection which I had already entered. The lack of adequate visibility prevented me from making a clear judgement before entering the box. Even though I was keeping a standard distance behind the car in front in congested traffic, it stopped at the top of the junction box, leaving me nowhere to go
The junction box was extraordinarily long, extending across the T-junction and just beyond the pavements on both sides of Sunnyhill Rd. This is longer than necessary. The length of the box was about that of 1 ½ buses. Traffic in London does not maintain 1 ½ bus-lengths between vehicles at the best of times.
In addition, where my car stopped rolling for 5-second, the half of the car that was still in the box was not aligned with Sunnyhill Rd, which I had cleared, but rather with the pavement. At this point, the box is not protecting a cross movement. Thus, this section of the box should not be ticketed and a PCN is not justified
I could not, at that point, turn left as I had passed the road; The 2-lane road, at this point, has temporarily reduced to 1 lane. Therefore, I could not change lanes. I tried to slow, trusting that the front car would fill the space in front of him and allow me to clear the box, but they did not in time and I was forced to stop rolling forward for 5 seconds. I did my best not to block anyone
As it was, only half of my vehicle was left in the box and that was for only a few seconds. One can see from my attempt to keep moving forward and to the side, that I was trying to avoid stopping in the box. As it was, no traffic was obstructed, no gridlock was created, no through movement was prevented, which is the purpose of junction boxes. In fact, one can see in the video that a car was easily able to turn around me
It was not my intention to stop in the junction box. I agree with them and am critical of drivers who deliberately stop in them. I try to be careful of them without resorting to stop/start, jerky driving. I think that, in these circumstances, a PCN is a harsh penalty. Had a preceding car not inexplicably stopped where it did, I would have been fine
In short, the situation was created by a preceding car which I could not see nor over which I could have any control

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #26 on: »
Send that off and let's see what they say. I'm not sure that would win on its own at the tribunal, but you never want to deny an authority an opportunity to mess things up.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #27 on: »
https://ibb.co/nB0pNp8

TFL has taken its time but the inevitable rejection has just arrived, 2 months after the PCN was issued
They are satisfied that half of my car being stationary for 5 second is sufficient to reject the appeal, even though I was past the cross road of the sidestreet and did not prevent any other vehicle from turning from or onto the side road (one car actuallyy did so without issue)
The other appeal notes such as the preceding car that stopped short and prevented me from clearing the box, or the fact that the junction box was excessively long and exceded the joinng road, or that is was clear when I entered it, none of these were addressed in the rejection
It is not clear when the re-offered discount period ends. The rejection is dated 1 Sep but did not arrive until 9 Sep
Thank  you for your assistance
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 09:03:02 pm by gumph69 »

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #28 on: »
The total stop is 5 seconds so at the upper bounds of de-minimis, the box extends a bit beyond the junction, and the notice of rejection doesn't actually specify what the amount due actually is (it says £80 but doesn't say if this is the full or discounted amount).

Those issues, cumulatively, barely make this case a 50 / 50 gamble at the tribunal.

However you are quite right in saying the PCN doesn't specify when the discounted period ends, and I've won on this before, see for instance Nayeem Haque v Transport for London (2220767288, 15 November 2022)

If the 14 day discount period starts with the date of the notice, then the last day is 14 September.

If however we count from the deemed date of service, you have until 18 September.

On top of that you didn't actually receive the rejection until 9 September, we can't rely on that as there's no way TFL could know, but it means that an attempt to pay next weekend or even on the 18th would not be particularly tardy.

What I would suggest is that you keep an eye on the amount due, if it goes up to £160 before 18 September we can appeal it based on the ambiguity in the discount period (note: a timestamped screenshot will be needed for this, PM me and I can do that).

If the penalty is still at £80 on 18 September, you'll have to decide whether to pay or risk the full penalty at the tribunal on what won't be a particularly solid case.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
« Reply #29 on: »
Here are a few pics. I could take more or even measure the lenght of the junction box + road width, if it helps
One photo shows how even an elongated van only covers half the box. It is hard to calculate, whilst driving down a crowded London road, if the junction of this length will be clear by the time it is traversed. As it was, the bit in which the rearof my car stopped, was not adjacent to the road, but only to the pavement on Sunnyhill. No cars were prevented from entering or leaving Sunnyhill, in fact one car turned in from the High Rd

https://ibb.co/MP6XWnB

https://ibb.co/y6dNtXv

https://ibb.co/yF49Gt0

https://ibb.co/PMPzVDj

https://ibb.co/1nRtDyq

https://ibb.co/MSLB5jS