Author Topic: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5  (Read 411 times)

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zeetopchoice

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TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« on: May 14, 2024, 09:52:48 pm »
Hi, I'm seeking some guidance regarding a PCN I recently received from TFL for Stopping in a Box Junction. I'm reaching out to the knowledgeable members of this forum for their expert opinions on whether I have grounds to challenge or appeal this notice.

I've already reached out to TFL, and they've placed the PCN on hold until 15th June, 2024, while they provide me with the relevant footage.

Below, I've included the email I sent to TFL and their response for your reference.

I appreciate any insights or advice you can offer on this matter. Apologies in advance for long winded post.

Unfortunately for some reason i have the dash cam footage after the contravention but not the actual contravention itself. I think dash cam only saved protected data when moved from stationary and over ridden the rest.

My email to TFL:
Dear Sirs,

I hope this email finds you well.

Please find attached my completed Subject Access Request Form, along with a copy of my driving license and a recent full picture, as required for the request.

I am writing to request access to CCTV footage regarding Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) reference number GX14838638, issued on 04/05/2024, at 14:00, at Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5. I received notice of this PCN on the afternoon of 11th May 2025, despite it being dated 09th May 2024, which I understand may be attributed to the typical delivery time for mail.

I am seeking this footage to clarify the circumstances surrounding the aforementioned PCN. Specifically, I require footage of the incident involving a black Skoda Kodiaq with the registration PB06 AMB. Additionally, I am requesting footage from the onboard cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64 EHW. The PCN only includes two images, timestamped at 14:00:30.1 BST and 14:00:52.5 BST, depicting the vehicle's movement from Church Rd/A312 to Western Ave/A40 via the slip road to M25/Oxford/Uxbridge. It is imperative to review additional footage to accurately assess the events leading to the PCN issuance.

During the incident, the black Skoda Kodiaq vehicle registration PB06 AMB encountered interference from a TFL bus, registration LK64 EHW, which executed an incorrect U-turn on the roundabout, heading towards Northolt. This manoeuvre caused the vehicle to momentarily halt in a box junction, necessitating further investigation into the events recorded by the CCTV cameras.

Moreover, it's crucial to highlight that the incident leading to the PCN issuance was exacerbated by the erroneous manoeuvre of the TFL bus. The bus was in the incorrect lane for its intended exit, and it left a significant gap in front, effectively blocking the lane change for other vehicles and resulting in a temporary stoppage. The bus, positioned in the exit lane to Western Ave/A40 via the slip road to M25/Oxford/Uxbridge, should have been in the middle lane as it was taking the fourth exit towards Church Rd/A312 leading to Northolt.

In addition to the requested footage for vehicle registration PB06 AMB, can I please request access to CCTV footage from the onboard cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64 EHW. Given that these buses are equipped with CCTV, this footage will provide valuable insight into the incident and aid in its resolution.

Furthermore, upon reviewing the footage from car's dashcam, I noticed discrepancies in the timing of the images provided with the PCN. To address this concern, I would appreciate your assistance with the following inquiries regarding the Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5 CCTV camera:

- Details regarding the last servicing and calibration of the camera and sensor equipment, including dates of the previous service and calibration.
- Due dates for the next servicing and calibration.
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the timeframes between servicing and calibration.
- The initial installation date of the camera and sensor equipment.
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the lifespan of the camera and sensor equipment.

Additionally, can I please request that the PCN be placed on hold pending the review and provision of the requested CCTV footage. Although I am aware that I have 14 days from the date of the notice to make payment, with a 50% reduced charge, given the discrepancy in the date of receipt, I urge for an extension of this deadline to ensure a fair and thorough review of the evidence.

In light of these circumstances, can I please request your prompt attention to this matter and a timely response regarding the provision of the requested CCTV footage. Furthermore, I ask for confirmation of the extension of the deadline for payment of the PCN pending the review of the evidence.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

TFL response:

Thank you for your email, received 13 May 2024, regarding Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) GX14838638.

Please be advised, Yellow Box Junctions (YBJs) are put in place to keep the junctions clear for through-traffic and to avoid traffic jams. They also keep the road space free to ensure fire engines always have a clear exit from fire stations.

You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter a YBJ and wait when you want to turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

Also, a vehicle may enter a YBJ when its exit is clear and there is enough space on the other side of the junction for the vehicle to clear the box junction completely, without stopping.

This said, your vehicle PB06AMB was observed entering and becoming stationary in the YBJ at SOUTHERN ARM TARGET ROUNDABOUT UB5 on 04 May 2024.

Please be advised the photographs provided on the PCN are primarily used to demonstrate the registered keeper’s vehicle was at the location at the time of the contravention. All CCTV contraventions are recorded on digital storage media and are obtainable from Transport for London (TfL) on request.

TfL uses CCTV cameras in locations on the road network across London for the purpose of live traffic monitoring, to help keep London moving, and to help manage congestion, disruption and major events that can affect the roads.

CCTV operators based in TfL's Road Network Compliance Team may observe a contravention via their real-time monitoring of our network of both fixed and mobile CCTV cameras. CCTV operators will have a very limited amount of time to collate the evidence required to issue PCNs for multiple contravening vehicles. Where this is the case, only the footage relevant to the contravention will be recorded and used to issue a PCN to the registered keeper, by post.

I can confirm, I have arranged for a copy of the CCTV footage in relation to PCN GX14838638 to be sent to you under separate cover.

Having reviewed the CCTV footage, I can confirm your vehicle PB06AMB was observed entering the YBJ before it’s exit lane is clear at 14:00:17. At 14:00:23, your vehicle switches lanes (behind the bus), before its exit lane is clear and subsequently stops within the YBJ at 14:00:29. Your vehicle moves forward at 14:00:42, before becoming stationary again at 14:00:43. Your vehicle remains stationary until it moves to exit the YBJ at 14:00:47. Your vehicle is observed stationary in the YBJ for a total of 17 seconds.

I appreciate you stating that you were forced to become stationary in the YBJ due to the actions of the bus with number plate LK64EHW, however, it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure a correct judgement is made when entering a YBJ and attempting to cross over the traffic lights. You should not simply follow the vehicle in front, as it may stop and prevent your exit.

As your vehicle was observed entering the box junction before its exit lane was clear and subsequently becoming stationary within the box junction, a contravention occurred and PCN GX14838638 was therefore issued.

To clarify, in the event a vehicle is captured contravening regulations on the Transport for London Road Network (TLRN), details of the vehicle in question are sent to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA), which then supplies particulars of the registered keeper for the vehicle in question. When this information is received, a PCN is created and sent to the name and address of the registered keeper as provided by the DVLA.

PCN GX14838638 was therefore issued to you on 09 May 2024 using the details provided by the DVLA.

The PCN was issued at a standard rate of £160.00 and advised that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% (£80.00).

Non-payment of the PCN at the standard or discounted rate or failing to submit a representation (before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice), may lead to the issue of a Charge Certificate, which increases the outstanding amount of the PCN by 50% (£240.00).

I can confirm that PCN GX14838638 will be placed on hold until 15 June 2024, giving you enough time to review the footage, once received.

I have reviewed your enquiry regarding the ‘Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5’ CCTV camera. Please see details below for details of the information you requested:

- Details regarding the last servicing and calibration of the camera and sensor equipment, including dates of the previous service and calibration:

Date of last Periodic Inspection: 15 November 2023
Date of previous Periodic Inspection: 17 May 2023

- Due dates for the next servicing and calibration

Date of Next Periodic Inspection: 08 June 2024 (+/- 4 weeks)

- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the timeframes between servicing and calibration:

Not specified in the Manufacturer’s Data Sheet.
 
- The initial installation date of the camera and sensor equipment.

Site first installed: 01 November 1999
Current CCTV camera installation date: 10 January 2023                             

- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the lifespan of the camera and sensor equipment:

Manufacturer states the following in the camera Data Sheet:- “Unsurpassed reliability - As with all Bosch products, the camera is designed using the industry’s best design process and is subjected to the most stringent testing standards such as HALT (highly accelerated life testing), which pushes the limits of products to ensure reliability throughout their lifetime

Regarding your request for the CCTV footage from the onboard cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64EHW, please be advised London's bus services are operated by individual bus companies on behalf of TfL. Any CCTV on London buses is the responsibility of the company that runs that particular service or route. TfL does not hold CCTV footage from buses. You will therefore need to contact the relevant bus operator, who operates that particular bus route, if you require access to images/footage.

Having reviewed the case, I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued in accordance with the relevant regulations. Please be advised, to make a payment or challenge the PCN, you will need to follow the instructions on the PCN.

I trust the above provides a clarification, but please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Thank you for contacting us.

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zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2024, 11:51:07 pm »
I will really appreciate it if you guys can provide any guidance. Thanks

Incandescent

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2024, 12:15:56 am »
Their video is the sole evidence, so we need to see it.

TfL are in the Dark Ages IT-wise and send it out on request via a DVD. So please post it here when it arrives. There may also be a technical appeal argument on CCTV, but I'm not up-to-speed on this issue.

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2024, 11:13:06 am »
Thank you, I'll share the video with you as soon as I receive it. I just need to figure out how to download it from the DVD since new laptops no longer come with a DVD reader. Once again, thank you for taking the time to read through the details.

cp8759

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2024, 09:22:17 pm »
@zeetopchoice well I've not seen this one before:



Maybe SARs are the way to get a one-month hold. That being said can you please post up the actual correspondence you have received rather than a transcript? This could be very important. Just redact your postal address and leave all other details visible.

Also have you been able to view the video? The case of Richard Andrew Glass v Transport for London (2230065210, 25 May 2023) springs to mind.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2024, 10:26:36 am »
Thank you for taking the time to read this post. Attached is the SAR request I sent to TFL, response from the TFL and original PCN.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 11:00:23 am by zeetopchoice »

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 11:16:56 am »
I have shared the requested documents in PDF format in an earlier post.

I received the DVD on Friday just as we were leaving to travel abroad. I returned yesterday evening and have been trying to find a DVD player today, but haven't had any luck so far.

Thank you for mentioning the Richard Andrew Glass v Transport for London case.

Should I continue trying to review the DVD and share the video here for expert comments, or should I proceed with a representation stating that TFL bus obstructed my view, preventing me from seeing the traffic beyond the bus to determine if the way was clear? Additionally, the traffic buildup is caused by HS2 works on Church Road (Ref: DV00260704314-02). The signage for these works is inconsistent around the roundabout. Thank you once more for your help and assistance.

@zeetopchoice well I've not seen this one before:



Maybe SARs are the way to get a one-month hold. That being said can you please post up the actual correspondence you have received rather than a transcript? This could be very important. Just redact your postal address and leave all other details visible.

Also have you been able to view the video? The case of Richard Andrew Glass v Transport for London (2230065210, 25 May 2023) springs to mind.


zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2024, 12:57:35 pm »
Here is the video link. I hope this works and experts are able to assist me in writing an appeal.

You can see the lane was clear ahead of bus and the driver just stopped because he was in wrong lane.

Thanks in advance.

https://youtu.be/lKZWQ9VEMw8

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2024, 12:58:35 pm »
I have managed to find a dvd player and posted the video for your kind review. Thanks

Their video is the sole evidence, so we need to see it.

TfL are in the Dark Ages IT-wise and send it out on request via a DVD. So please post it here when it arrives. There may also be a technical appeal argument on CCTV, but I'm not up-to-speed on this issue.

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2024, 12:16:33 pm »
Good afternoon all, I'm reaching out to request assistance and would greatly appreciate the community's expert opinions. If there are any grounds for an appeal, your insights would be invaluable. Thank you in advance for your help.

cp8759

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2024, 07:04:51 pm »
@zeetopchoice it's not a very strong case but this is the best I can do:

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box junction my exit was clear and I had reasonably anticipated the bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit, after I had entered the box junction that bus (without signalling) unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.

There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction when I entered, literally enough space to accomodate a bus. I could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit a contravention if he enters a box junction with a clear exist and owing to some unanticipated event such as a vehicle unexpectedly altering course results in that space being occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.

It follows that the contravention did not occur and the penalty must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via the TFL website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2024, 11:56:17 am »
Thank you very much for taking the time to assist with the response.

Can I please refer to previous cases and send the updated version below? I have found this here: https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1554882,2926038,60,APPEAL&cs=3CPPTSGRSd43TR9BRodiHul7O_-b84PjuJDcteNJ5zFos2clp5mrCpDXk25y11MEXfddVT44yEpX3iwtbMOX5RQ

https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1544568,2913381,60,APPEAL&cs=3BRERumC3mymjG5VquZ9tBXj97vQvDBUN90Pr5lNR1QsEzz8L7SAik1BC5wZo8JgQK5Pj2F2hvtX7rHdpiD37WQ

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box junction, my exit was clear, and I had reasonably anticipated the bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit. After I entered the box junction, the bus (without signalling) unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.

There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction when I entered, literally enough space to accommodate a bus. I could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit a contravention if they enter a box junction with a clear exit and owing to some unanticipated event, such as a vehicle unexpectedly altering course, results in that space being occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.

According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, Schedule 9 Part 7 paragraph 11:

11(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

It follows that the contravention did not occur and the penalty must be cancelled.

Additionally, I would like to reference similar cases where adjudicators have allowed appeals under comparable circumstances:

Case ref 2230037124, Appellant Mariann Ogboyi vs. Transport for London:

Decision Date: 13 Feb 2023
Adjudicator: Anju Kaler
Summary: The appellant had to stop within the box due to the inconsiderate driving and change of mind by another driver. The adjudicator allowed the appeal, noting that the appellant's exit was clear at the time of entry and the stop was caused by an unexpected event.

Case ref 2220796242, Appellant Premier Transfers Midlands Ltd vs. LB of Hammersmith and Fulham:

Decision Date: 01 Dec 2022
Adjudicator: Anju Kaler
Summary: The appellant's vehicle stopped within the box due to the unexpected stopping of a coach ahead. The adjudicator allowed the appeal, acknowledging that the appellant could not have anticipated the coach stopping without reason.

These cases illustrate that unexpected changes in the behavior of other drivers, which cannot be reasonably anticipated, are valid grounds for appeal. Therefore, based on the circumstances described and supported by these precedents, I request that the penalty charge be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


@zeetopchoice it's not a very strong case but this is the best I can do:

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box junction my exit was clear and I had reasonably anticipated the bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit, after I had entered the box junction that bus (without signalling) unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.

There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction when I entered, literally enough space to accomodate a bus. I could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit a contravention if he enters a box junction with a clear exist and owing to some unanticipated event such as a vehicle unexpectedly altering course results in that space being occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.

It follows that the contravention did not occur and the penalty must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via the TFL website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 12:30:14 pm by zeetopchoice »

cp8759

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2024, 12:23:41 am »
@zeetopchoice your links won't work, you cannot link directly to a tribunal decision in that way.

Anyway, you can amend your representations if you wish but personally I wouldn't bother: TFL will reject no matter what you say, and arguments around the regulations are best kept for the tribunal, but if you really want to it won't cause any harm.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2024, 12:22:11 am »
Sorry for the late reply, I've been traveling after my holiday.

I'll keep it simple and submit your version, saving the regulations for the tribunal. Thank you very much!

@zeetopchoice your links won't work, you cannot link directly to a tribunal decision in that way.

Anyway, you can amend your representations if you wish but personally I wouldn't bother: TFL will reject no matter what you say, and arguments around the regulations are best kept for the tribunal, but if you really want to it won't cause any harm.
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zeetopchoice

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Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2024, 08:27:11 pm »
Good evening, How long does it usually take for TFL to respond to an appeal? Thanks