3. TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
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TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
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I have attached the original notice, my appeal and their response. They sent me the video footage where the camera operator does a good job of not showing why the vehicle stopped. But it does show our vehicle entered the box when there was not sufficient space on the other side to clear the box, however, the vehicle stopped due to traffic lights for a pedestrian crossing on the other side of the box with not enough room between the edge of the box and the traffic lights for the vehicle to fit. If it wasn't for the lights the vehicle would have cleared the box without stopping as the traffic was flowing.

My manager and I, want to know if we can win at a London Tribunal? I am aware of the discrepancies between what the regulations say and what the highway code says for box junctions and have looked at YellowBoxes.co.uk where there are numerous examples of London Tribunal appeals won for vehicles stopping in box junctions for reasons other than other vehicles.

Also, how much does the fine go upto? Do I have to attend the tribunal or do they assess my written appeal? I have only really dealt with councils and POPLA previously and they are idiots... inconsistent idiots. I'd like to think I wouldn't be dealing with that level of incompetence at London Tribunals.

Any help and advice would be much appreciated.

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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #1 on: »
Post the video.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #2 on: »
My manager and I, want to know if we can win at a London Tribunal?

Do I have to attend the tribunal or do they assess my written appeal?

Who knows for the first question, we need to see the video.

No for the second because appeals are held remotely in the main and no again because PCN-wise this has nothing to do with you, the PCN was addressed to and liability lies with the registered keeper. So, who is the registered keeper, the company to which the PCN is addressed or is the vehicle perhaps leased/hired and therefore the registered keeper another entity?

So:
The video;
The VRM;
Who is the registered keeper?

Please.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #3 on: »
The vehicle is in the possesion of the registered keeper, the haulage company, that I am an employee of.

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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #4 on: »
The offence is one of entering the box and having to stop within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. So we need to see the video to make sure of the strength of your case.

This assumes your manager can act on behalf of the registered keeper, (the company). As HCA points out, only the registered keeper can submit reps, but can authorise a person to act on their behalf. Liability for payment if the case is lost remains with the keeper.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on July 01, 2025, 12:15:35 pm
The offence is one of entering the box and having to stop within it due to the presence of stationary vehicles. So we need to see the video to make sure of the strength of your case.

This assumes your manager can act on behalf of the registered keeper, (the company). As HCA points out, only the registered keeper can submit reps, but can authorise a person to act on their behalf. Liability for payment if the case is lost remains with the keeper.

Hi, the video should be attached to my last reply as a .rar, I couldn't upload a video file. Is there a better way to upload it on here?
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 14, 2023, 01:37:48 pm
You can also upload videos to YouTube, Vimeo etc. and to Google Drive etc (please avoid using https://wetransfer.com/ as most members won't bother downloading zip files, you need to use a website that allows files to be viewed in a browser).
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: DWMB2 on July 01, 2025, 12:37:17 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on June 14, 2023, 01:37:48 pm
You can also upload videos to YouTube, Vimeo etc. and to Google Drive etc (please avoid using https://wetransfer.com/ as most members won't bother downloading zip files, you need to use a website that allows files to be viewed in a browser).

Okay thanks.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x_sYqfvmed3hbh8zU3jA8GIbNC7KX46Q/view
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks for the video.

As you already seem to be aware, it's a box junction offence only if your stop is due to stationary vehicles.  The video does not show why you stopped so there is no evidence of an offence.  Your explanation is also credible as when the camera angle does adjust, one can see the signalled pedestrian crossing exactly where you stopped, plus the HGV in front of you seemed to move off screen at too great a pace for it to have stopped just off screen where you seem to have stopped.

All in all, I'd definitely take this one all the way and would give you a close to 100% chance of winning assuming you follow the procedure and present your argument coherently for the tribunal.

Re following procedure, the key one in the short term is that any representations to TFL are sent by (or on behalf of) the entity to whom the PCN is addressed.

Thereafter, don't miss any deadlines!
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #9 on: »
It's appeal or pay, reps have been made and rejected.

So, entering and stopping within the box is accepted. The next issue is, why?

It's clear that the order of events could not have been that the vehicle ahead stopped for the lights then you stopped behind them, there isn't room.

So, IMO the only scenarios are that you stopped for the lights or that the lights are a red or green herring and in fact you stopped because you were prevented by the vehicle ahead which had stopped for its own reasons beyond the lights.

IMO, there isn't definitive evidence one way or the other so it's about accumulating circumstantial evidence. Was the woman on the footway heading to the crossing, would the lights have changed so promptly(these are pedestrian-activated and so have a default green phase)? Unfortunately, the road ahead of your vehicle can't be seen again until well after you stopped. Given the period you were stationary, if you'd stopped because the vehicle ahead was stationary then you would have set off together and we might have seen it which would undermine your argument. If for the lights then we'd expect to see a clear road immediately ahead. Sadly, we don't see the road ahead.

Balance of probabilities - your cab stopped short of the crossing. Likelihood that this was coincidentally a few feet behind the stationary vehicle ahead v you stopped there because it's where a vehicle stopping for someone on the crossing would stop. Another factor is the phasing of the lights. If you were stopped there but the vehicle ahead wasn't then they went from red to green to red in the time you were stationary, 14 seconds est. It's plausible.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #10 on: »
As this is on a red route, also have a read of this thread:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/tfl-red-route-postal-pcns/

tho' I am not sure if CP's fault extends to YBJs?
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #11 on: »
Unfortunately, it was too long ago to get the vehicle dashcam footage, but the camera takes and saves a still shot every 2 minutes. Luckily, it took the picture when the vehicle was stopped at the pedestrian crossing and shows more than enough room ahead for the vehicle to clear the box, I included that in my appeal as you may have seen.

As you say they don't show why the vehicle stopped in their video. I noticed they quoted the regulation in their rejection notice too, adding that the contravention and rules of yellow box junctions are defined there, but then didn't apply it 🤔
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #12 on: »
They don't have evidence of stopping owing to stationary vehicles so I would go on with this. At a personal hearing your testimony would be heard as credible no doubt.

As with a lot of TFL cases I expect they won't contest.

A related point is that crossings close to box junctions often cause such issues. Redbridge has got rid of two boxes recentlyy because of this.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/wanstead-redbridge-council-stopping-in-a-yellow-box-junction/15/
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #13 on: »
I think HCA is slightly overthinking it.  Even if the stop was due to the HGV in front (which we all seem to agree it likely isn't), if the HGV isn't in shot, who's to say it was actually fully stationary? It could have been crawling along at a snail's pace, enough to make you stop but not stationary as the regulations require for your stop to be a contravention.

It's for the authority to demonstrate an offence has taken place.  An adjudicator shouldn't have to guess.
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Re: TfL Box Junction - Vehicle stopped for pedestrian crossing not due to other vehicles.
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on July 01, 2025, 02:51:21 pm
I think HCA is slightly overthinking it.  Even if the stop was due to the HGV in front (which we all seem to agree it likely isn't), if the HGV isn't in shot, who's to say it was actually fully stationary? It could have been crawling along at a snail's pace, enough to make you stop but not stationary as the regulations require for your stop to be a contravention.

It's for the authority to demonstrate an offence has taken place.  An adjudicator shouldn't have to guess.

Perhaps, but I understand why he's saying that from the video they provided. The dashcam still that I put in my appeal is timestamped about 13 seconds after the vehicle becomes stationary in the video, so doesn't show that the pedestrian crossing is the reason the vehicle became stationary, but does show it is the reason it continued to be stationary. Their video doesn't show exactly why the vehicle became stationary, but does show the vehicle infront continuing at speed and not looking like it stops right out of frame of the camera.

But yes as you say it is on them to demonstrate the offence took place, but the respondent to my appeal clearly believes the highway code is the law and not the actual law. He doesn't argue that the vehicle infront suddenly became stationary. He's just claiming that not following the highway code is the contravention.
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