3. TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
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TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
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Moved from here : http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=151472&pid=1793990&mode=threaded&start=#entry1793990

Hi All, new poster here, I am trying to get Form PE3 submitted without also needing PE2 (Out of Time).

I have an Order for Recovery of unpaid penalty charge Form PE2
Applicant : London Borough of Waltham Forest
Date of contravention : 16-4-2023
Total : £204 (195+9)
Dated : 1-9-2023
- the background is that I did not receive the original PCN, and found out about it at Charge Certificate stage, so I waited for the OfR so that I could appeal it.
- I want to go through the appeal process as the PCN in question is causing quite a few local issues on the street (I will put up detail in due course)
- I have managed to access the PCN evidence, and in the summary it states "NoDR Sent"

Following this:
6-9-2023 : I sent the PE3 by registered post, this was signed for on 7-9-2023
12-9-2023 : I received a reply dated 11-9-2023 stating that my Statutory Declaration was received "outside the timescale allowed", and that a PE2 would also be required.
14-9-2023 : I sent an email query to TEC asking why my submission was deemend "outside the time allowed". I have not received a reply to this email yet.
14-9-2023 (email, after 4pm) : I sent all of the correspondence back, along with a letter stating that the application was made in time, and requesting that it was processed as submitted.
20-9-2023 : email response received, stating that my Statutory Declaration was received "outside the timescale allowed", and that a PE2 would also be required.
20-9-2023 (email, after 4pm) : I have resent the original statutory declaration form PE3, along with a short letter highlighting that it is submitted within 21 days of the Order for Recovery.

It looks like I will need to get form PE2 completed, and resubmit a new PE3, but what is the "timescale allowed" for submission of PE3, without an accompanying PE2?


My best guess at this stage is:
6-9-2023 : my original postal submission was valid but was rejected in error / or it is easier & quicker for TEC to reject, I don't know.
14-9-2023 : my second submission by email contained my PE3 form, with a stamp from TEC (received 7-9-2023) on it. Technically, this could be deemed new information so it should have been re-witnessed.
20-9-2023 : obviously I am not getting my hopes up, but there is nothing in the information in front of me which suggests that I am outside of the "timescale allowed" for submitting a PE3.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #1 on: »
OfR attached, showing "Dated 1-9-2023" I don't have the original letter, but it was not received before 1-9-2023, I believe it was received on the 2nd or 4th Sep.

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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #2 on: »
The OfR was not dated 1/9/23; that was your deadline.

I know it's confusing but that's a typical template used by many councils.

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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: snarkmaiden on September 21, 2023, 12:37:14 am

- I have managed to access the PCN evidence, and in the summary it states "NoDR Sent"

So let's have a look at that evidence because you seem to be being a bit coy.

And, looking back, were you following on pepipoo the numerous threads about dealing with a Charge Certificate? I ask because you seem to have gone your own way; not least 'posting' something that should always be e-mailed.

It's largely pointless arguing with TEC but, to put your mind at rest, the question you should be asking them is >> On what date was the debt 'registered'?
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #4 on: »
Do you happen to have the envelope for the OfR? Is there a postmark?
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #5 on: »
No, I don't routinely keep envelopes, but it was received on either 2nd or 4th September.
I've phoned the TEC this morning, and have discovered that the debt was registered on 7th July 2023 with them.
It seems that the OfR (sent by the council) should have been dated 7th July 2023, not 1st Sep 2023.

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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #6 on: »
I'll try again >
Quote from: Neil B on September 21, 2023, 08:40:52 am

So let's have a look at that evidence.

[/quote]
The evidence you said you found, presumably online.
It sounds like a case history.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: snarkmaiden on September 21, 2023, 11:06:55 am
No, I don't routinely keep envelopes, but it was received on either 2nd or 4th September.
I've phoned the TEC this morning, and have discovered that the debt was registered on 7th July 2023 with them.
It seems that the OfR (sent by the council) should have been dated 7th July 2023, not 1st Sep 2023.
As I suggested on PP and Neil has said here, the date is likely the deadline, not the date of order.

If we work with that, it gives substance to the OOT
But as Neil says...lets see what you have in writing, like the case history

Reason for being late.....
Order for Recovery not received until 2nd September, after the deadline of 1st September.
Date registered with TEC 7/7/23 which makes the late arrival questionable.
Though whether postal delays or delays with raising the Order is unknown.
Plus something on not being familiar with the form and thinking that the prominent date was the date of notice and time taken to understand and correct the error.
If the authority object, I request that the objection focuses on when the Order was raised and posted, not simply that notices were sent to the proper address. The only reason for missing the deadline was that the Order did not arrive in good time.

Not relevant now but in case someone else comes on this thread looking for information.
Once a Charge Certificate arrives and there is reason to wait for the Order for Recovery, it is important to be proactive, if the order is late, goes missing or the like and the deadline for automatic acceptance is missed, it all goes pear shaped.
Regular phone calls to the authority and or TEC are key.
Asking if the debt had been registered.
The moment the answer is yes, relevant forms can be downloaded from TEC, filled in and sent.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #8 on: »
If the debt was really registered on 7/7 then the deadline would have been 12/8 so not a lot is making sense.

But you need to let us look.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #9 on: »
PCN summary attached, not much to see really, the "NoDR sent" comment is probably not relevant here.

The conversation with TEC earlier this morning was very clear, the "Dated 01/09/2023" was not the deadline.
I believe the deadline would be around 22nd Sep (calendar days), or 29th Sep (working days).
- but these September dates are largely irrelevant, as it should have been sent 2 months prior, and been "Dated 07/07/2023".

A contributing factor may be that the debt is registered by the council with TEC.
The OfR letter is sent by the council (not by TEC), and I do believe this is an error on the council's part of several weeks.

I am doing the following:
- resending the PE3 (without a PE2), but including a copy of the OfR and requesting that this is treated as an "in time" representation
- I am going to get a PE2 witnessed, and submit a PE2 & PE3 together. Thanks for the suggested wording, I will pop up my own draft, in the hope that it helps others
- I am going to have to spend yet more time on this, trying to figure out the potential next steps, i.e. if I need to move the vehicle to an unknown location

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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #10 on: »
Forgot to add this chronology:
1-6-2023 : Date of Charge Certificate
4-6-2023 : I emailed the council using the contact details on the CC, no response
<< 7-7-2023, I found out on 21-9-2023 that the debt had been registered on 7-7-2023 >>
23-8-2023 : I emailed the council using the contact details on the CC, no response
1-9-2023 : OfR received on either 2nd or 4th September, "Dated 01/09/2023"

... it looks like an erroneous OfR sent exactly 8 weeks later than it should have been.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: snarkmaiden on September 21, 2023, 12:00:13 pm
... it looks like an erroneous OfR sent exactly 8 weeks later than it should have been.
No it isn't as Dad and I have both explained.

What you've shown isn't a case history and, as you said, doesn't show much but why are you obscuring details? That stops us looking at things for ourselves.

No, you don't need to secure your car at this point.

DO NOT attempt to complete a PE2 without posting a draft here first.
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #12 on: »
I suspect I know the answer but have you an actual copy of the Order??
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: DancingDad on September 21, 2023, 12:34:59 pm
I suspect I know the answer but have you an actual copy of the Order??
In post #2 above (pdf)
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Re: TEC "time allowed" for PE3?
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: Neil B on September 21, 2023, 12:17:52 pm
Quote from: snarkmaiden on September 21, 2023, 12:00:13 pm
... it looks like an erroneous OfR sent exactly 8 weeks later than it should have been.
No it isn't as Dad and I have both explained.

What you've shown isn't a case history and, as you said, doesn't show much but why are you obscuring details? That stops us looking at things for ourselves.

No, you don't need to secure your car at this point.

DO NOT attempt to complete a PE2 without posting a draft here first.

Is there a case history that I can access and upload? I am not aware of what this is.
Bear with me while I get another email off to TEC today by 4pm, and I can put up info on the PCN itself.
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  3. TEC "time allowed" for PE3?