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Hi, I'm continuing the discussion I started on Pepipoo (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150856)

Parked in bays that were suspended. The signage when read is clear which bays are suspended but they didn't cover the existing sign and the sign was facing away from the driver who didn't see it.

As someone pointed out on those forums it's odd that it was suspended on a Sunday for Thames Water works and it's possible the works weren't properly authorised for a Sunday.

Is there a good chance of appeal or should I just pay it?

Sign was not facing street and driver missed it.


Here's both sides of the PCN





And here's the notice itself:

Strange that the suspension started 3 days before but there is no evidence of ongoing work on the Sunday I would argue that the works had finished so as per regs there is no need for the sign to be in place

Thanks. The dates are from Thursday 13th July until end of Monday 17th July.

Also, I don'th ave absolute evidence (e.g. photos) that no works were taking place although it was clear nothing was happening on a Sunday. I do have a photo showing cars parked in all the bays along that stretch at the time (they all got tickets in the end I think!).

I suspect the actual works by Thames Water were posponed but if I can't prove this (where do I find this out) or if in law the suspension is still valid even if the works didn't happen, then I'll just pay up - I only want to appeal if I have more than 50% chance of getting off!

They agreed to accept discounted payment, so I paid as I wasn't sure of my chances.

Got NTO at same time, I'll love to still challenge but I assume too late once paid?

Quote from: ashirusnw on August 22, 2023, 04:15:02 pm

Got NTO at same time, I'll love to still challenge but I assume too late once paid?

@ashirusnw I've got the suspension logs back, and they suggest you could have challenged on the basis that the works had been completed, but if the amount due on the council website is now £0 then it's too late. Sorry to say so but you probably threw £65 away for nothing.

thanks for that and lesson learnt !

Out of interest, how would I get hold of the suspension logs in this sort of situation?

Just got this back from Thames Water:



So, the works had been completed at the time of the alleged contravention, and you would have had a winning appeal had you pursued this.

To answer your question, I'd suggest you just post the PCN on here and let us get the logs for you, there's a very specific way you have to go about this and there is limited time to act. If you do it yourself and get the wrong answer, you won't have time to have another go before the deadline to appeal has run out.

As for this PCN, you could try contacting the council and asking them to refund the £65 and let you make formal representations against the NTO, chances are they'll refuse (as they could just keep the money and there's nothing further you could do), but don't ask, don't get.

Council wrote to me saying I can appeal but warning that I'll have to pay higher rate if it's rejected. I'm going for it thanks.

text reads:

Thank you for your letter, which was received by the Council on 01/09/2023.
Following payment of £65.00 on 19/08/2023 in relation to this PCN, this Notice has been paid in full.
As payment of the outstanding charge has been made, the liability of the penalty charge has been accepted.and the case closed.
If you wish to reopen the case and challenge the PCN, a refund will be issued for the amount of £65.00 and any challenge received will be considered.
Please note, that as the Notice to Owner has been issued, any challenge will be at the statutory rate (£130.00) and if rejected, the full amount will be due, not the discounted rate the PCN has been paid at previously.
If you wish to challenge the PCN, please contact us confirming this and submitting a formal representation in relation to the PCN.
If no response is received within 14 days of the date of this letter, we will consider this case closed.
Yours sincerely

So I've double-checked the special authorisation for the suspension sing, and unlike many others it doesn't say the sign cannot stay after it is no longer needed.

However The Barnet (Charged-For Parking Places) Consolidation Order 2014 says at article 20(1) that:

Any person duly authorised by the Council or the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis may suspend the use of a parking place or parking area or any part thereof whenever they consider such suspension reasonably necessary:

A list of reasons for suspensions is then given. It is arguable that once the works were completed, it was no longer necessary for the bay to be suspended, however this is not as clear-cut as the Secretary of State's authorisation saying the sign cannot be there after it is no longer needed. You therefore need to decide whether you want to carry on.

After your 12th October reply I immediately posted an appeal, but in your later reply ^^^ you found my chances were not so high but it was too late!

(To recap, the PCN was paid but then they agreed - see letter in earlier post) to refund and formally consider my appeal.)

They've now replied with the following rejection, but weirdly have now moved the goalposts and said they would only refund the £65 if I win Tribunal appeal, and if I lose Tribunal then they'd charge me further £65. They don't say what happens if I do nothing, but presumably a Charge Certificate.

I'm hoping this rather strange reply means they've committed at least a procedural impropriety as it doesn't seem to comply at all with https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/40/schedule/6/paragraph/4!