Author Topic: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention  (Read 616 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2024, 01:28:23 pm »
Absolutely. Sorry to have missed the error previously;  but, no harm done as it will be highlighted next time.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Felics

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2024, 01:47:32 pm »
Update. Received the attached yesterday.

@Hippocrates - any thoughts?




Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2024, 01:58:25 pm »
Dear Havering Council

I make the following represenatations against the PCN and EN.

1. I reiterate my previous challenge which I now require you to consider as my formal representations.
2. In addition, I say that the PCN is unenforceable because the sentence under Enforcement Notice on the PCN wrongly states the period in which to pay and make representations  The Law states this @

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted

(3)A penalty charge notice under this Part of this Act must state—

(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

(e)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;


Therefore, the references to date of service in the said sentence is not only wrong but also creates an ambiguity:  If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, an Enforcement Notice may be served.....

3. Furthermore, the payment option on the PCN does not state the address to which payment may be made:

(f)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent;

4. The last ground: I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances or, indeed, make an insurance claim.

5. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the location has the correct VCA certificate to satisfy the criterion of evidence as provided at para. 7(2) Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended). 

In view of the above, please cancel both the PCN and EN.

**********************************

I would do this online as stated on the EN. .
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 07:38:20 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2024, 09:52:57 am »
@Felics: Further to our e mail exchange, do it online as per the second sentence under MAKING REPRESENTATION, using the web code.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 09:55:43 am by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2024, 10:06:07 am »
Dear Havering Council

I make the following represenatations against the PCN and EN.

1. I reiterate my previous challenge which I now require you to consider as my formal representations.
2. In addition, I say that the PCN is unenforceable because the sentence under Enforcement Notice on the PCN wrongly states the period in which to pay and make representations  The Law states this @

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted

(3)A penalty charge notice under this Part of this Act must state—

(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

(e)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an enforcement notice may be served by the council on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;


Therefore, the references to date of service in the said sentence is not only wrong but also creates an ambiguity:  If after the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this PCN is served no such representations have been made, and the penalty charge has not been paid, an Enforcement Notice may be served.....

3. Furthermore, the payment option on the PCN does not state the address to which payment may be made:

(f)the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent;

4. The last ground: I bring a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN is unenforceable because the taken without consent ground clearly fetters to theft by its very wording that a crime report be provided. Therefore, this inaccurate reflection of the statutory ground does not take into account that a relative, or friend, may have taken the vehicle without the owner's permission so that the owner would not necessarily, if at all, report the matter to the Police in such circumstances or, indeed, make an insurance claim.

5. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the location has the correct VCA certificate to satisfy the criterion of admissibility of evidence as provided at para. 7(2) Schedule 1 of The London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended). 

In view of the above, please cancel both the PCN and EN.

**********************************

I would do this online as stated on the EN. .
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Felics

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2024, 08:23:46 pm »
Hi all, @Hippocrates

See attached response to my appeal below:





Do we now appeal with the verification code?

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2024, 09:02:21 pm »
Yes sir.  Please e mail me and I will advise in detail.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2024, 12:53:41 pm »
This should be an interesting one. Failure to consider too.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2024, 03:59:31 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2024, 02:41:24 pm »
So looking forward to this. Say no more at this stage in the game.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 11:20:16 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2024, 06:24:18 pm »
@cp8759  do we know what the camera is at this location?  Interesting they did not provide a VCA certificate or a Witness Statement.  Case won today on both points.  Costs application to be considered as I wrote to them to do the eminently sensible thing which was to DNC!

HV008 camera?

FOIR sent.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 07:32:17 pm by Hippocrates »
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
Like Like x 1 View List

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5209
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2024, 10:09:28 pm »
Sorry @Hippocrates I've not dealt with this location before so I have no data on the camera.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5209
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2024, 08:06:16 pm »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Havering PCN - New Road 1306 RM13 Bus lane contravention
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2024, 08:08:54 pm »
One of the most personable of all of them.  :)
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ