Author Topic: Stopped in a restricted area outside a school - Given ticket after school closed for summer  (Read 2668 times)

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Hoping you can help. I parked my car outside my son's school to help with offloading, picking up for his last day. School finished early so I thought the parking hours weren't applicable.







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You have redacted the PCN and VRM details.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

You have redacted the PCN and VRM details.
The PCN details are shown in the image. Here it is again (in case you can't see it): IY00136465
Sorry, I didn't show the VRM (wasn't too sure what to show). It's LL24 GYO.
Thanks

"I parked my car outside my son's school to help with offloading, picking up for his last day. School finished early"

Sorry but this makes no sense - if it had finished what were you doing there?

Unusually for these it's a windscreen PCN which may suggest they were trying to catch people out but out of what - a false sense of security on just a shorter schoolday?



I'm afraid that on the face of it and like it or not the car was parked in contravention of the prohibition.

It does not lie with a driver to interpret a sign, in this case that it doesn't apply during school holidays.

You do not have a statutory defence IMO, but a strong argument for the authority to exercise discretion. But set the tone of any challenge correctly i.e. contrition not verbal assault and denial. 

Is the vehicle owned or leased/hired? If private are the keeper's DVLA details current?
Agree Agree x 1 View List

OK, so looking at this in detail...

A traffic order I can find - which may not be current - says the restriction only applies in term time.

Assuming this is West Lodge Primary School, its website gives end times for children for the term before the afternoon restriction time on 18 July.



LONDON BOROUGH OF HARROW

The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) (Amendment No. 1) Traffic Order 1998 (The Harrow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 103) Traffic Order 1998

Notice is hereby given that the Council of the London Borough of Harrow, on 8th June 1998, made the above mentioned Orders under sections 6, 124 and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended by the Local Government Act 1985 and all other enabling powers. 

2. The general effect of the (Prohibiton of Stopping Outside Schools) (Amendment) Order will be to amend The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) Traffic Order 1997, so that in the length of street specified in the Schedule to this notice between 8.30 a.m. to 9.30 a.m. and 3 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. Mondays to Fridays during school term times would be prohibited. 

3. The general effect of the (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment) Order will be to amend The Harrow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Traffic Order 1978, so that the waiting restrictions in the section of West End Lane listed in the Schedule to this notice would be the same as the restrictions for the (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) Traffic Order rather than the Pinner Controlled Parking Zone time of Monday to Friday 11 a.m. to 12 noon. 

4. The prohibitions referred to in paragraph 2 and 3 above in respect of anything done at the direction of a police constable in uniform or with the permission of a parking attendant and the carrying out of statutory powers or duties. However the restrictions listed in paragraph 2 would not allow the picking up or setting down of passengers and “Orange Badge” holders would NOT be exempt. 

5. Copies of the Orders, which will come into operation on 15th June 1998, The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) Traffic Order 1997 and of the Harrow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) Order 1978 (and of the Orders which have previously amended that Order) and documents giving more particulars of the Order are available for inspection during normal office hours on Mondays to Fridays inclusive until the end of 6 weeks from the date on which the Order was made in Third Floor Reception, Department of Environmental Services, Civic Centre, Station Road, Harrow. 

6. If any person wishes to question the validity of the Orders or of their provisions on the grounds that they are not within the powers conferred by the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or that any requirement of the Act or of any Instrument made under the Act has not been complied with, that person may, within 6 weeks of the date on which the Orders were made, apply for the purpose to the High Court. S. J. Swain, Transportation Manager, Environment, Planning and Transportation. Department of Environmental Services,  PO Box 37, Civic Centre,    Station Road, Harrow HA1 2UY.

Schedule
Vehicles not to stop on School Markings when the Sign is displayed Mondays to Fridays between 8.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. and between 3 p.m. and 4.30 p.m.

School
West Lodge School, Pinner

Road
West End Lane, between a point 8.60 metres south of a point opposite the southernmost wall of No. 77 West End Lane and a point 3.60 metres south of a point opposite the southern boundary of Pinner Memorial Park.

11th June 1998.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-55152-493

So, as the story said - "and with one bound, Jack was free" !

...except that the times on the sign are:

Mon-Fri 7.45-9.30am
        3-5pm.

And not the times in the posted order which are: 8.30-9.30am; 3-4.30pm.

So:
Wrong order;
Right order but wrong sign;


Not quite the get out of jail card as imagined.

What's the truth, who knows?


But surely the sign completely fails to reflect the TMO which says the restriction applies only during term time, as well as not reflecting the restricted times in the TMO.

I said that what I found may not be current. It's a start not a finish.

But if the current one specifies term times it amounts to the same thing.

OP, IMO you have your challenge.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

I parked as I thought that logically a 'no stopping on school entrance' sign with such specific times would apply only in term time. I accept that this doesn't appear on the sign, but it is improbable that any other activities which might take place during the holidays would do so such that these only occurred on Mon-Fri and that there was any purpose served by the very specific times. Having received the PCN I took the opportunity to research the matter and discovered a reference to the following order in the London Gazette:

The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) (Amendment No. 1) Traffic Order 1998 (The Harrow (Waiting and Loading Restriction) (Amendment No. 103) Traffic Order 1998


https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-55152-493

The notice states that the school prohibition would apply during term time only and then oddly refers to traffic signage(which isn't a function of a TMO) which is at odds with this prohibition i.e. 'Schedule: Vehicles not to stop on School Markings when the Sign is displayed Mondays to Fridays between 8.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. and between 3 p.m. and 4.30 p.m


I believe that the sign in evidence in my case is incorrect and that the prohibition applies during term time only. Consequently, the PCN must be cancelled.

Should the authority not cancel the PCN then its rejection must include whatever TMO which supersedes the 1998 order and which creates the all-year prohibition and not simply rely upon the sign which, as my evidence shows, is incorrect. 





The ending of the school term at lunchtime on that day needs to be cited as per:

https://primarysite-prod-sorted.s3.amazonaws.com/westlodgeprimary/UploadedDocument/28ffa605-b396-4bb0-91f9-16c2e5f375d6/term-dates-2024-25.pdf

Here's the amendment order changing the hours of operation.

--------

Road Traffic Acts
London Borough of Harrow
WEST LODGE SCHOOL KEEP CLEAR STOPPING PROHIBITIONS – CHANGE OF OPERATIONAL HOURS
THE HARROW (PROHIBITION OF STOPPING OUTSIDE SCHOOLS) (AMENDMENT NO. 5) TRAFFIC ORDER 2019
1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Council of the London Borough of Harrow has made the above mentioned order under Section 6, 7, 124 and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended by the Local Government Act 1985 and all other enabling powers.

2. The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) (Amendment No. 5) Traffic Order 2019 changes the existing hours of operation of the existing school stopping prohibitions in West End Lane and Northfield Avenue. The new hours are 7.45am to 9.30am and 3pm to 5pm Monday to Friday.

3. A copy of the order, which will come into operation on 21st October 2019, including documents giving more particulars of the order, are available for inspection at request between 9am and 5pm, Mondays to Fridays at the One Stop Shop at the Civic Centre, until 6 weeks from the date on which the order was made.

4. If any person wishes to question the validity of the order or its provisions on the grounds that they are not within the powers conferred by the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or that any requirement of the Act or of any instrument made under the Act has not been complied with, that person may, within six weeks of the date on which the order is made, apply for the purpose to the High Court. A copy of this notice may be viewed at www.harrow.gov.uk/trafficorders

Dated 17th October 2019

David Eaglesham

Head of Traffic, Highways and Asset Management

Community Directorate, PO Box 39, Civic Centre, Station Road, Harrow, HA1 2XA

Good find and this changes some matters i.e. the timings.

But it doesn't address the issue of 'during school term times'.

How do we find out if this simply amends the 1998 Order, in which case 'during school term times' could well still be current, or whether this or a previous amendment changed matters to 365 days?

Good find and this changes some matters i.e. the timings.

But it doesn't address the issue of 'during school term times'.

How do we find out if this simply amends the 1998 Order, in which case 'during school term times' could well still be current, or whether this or a previous amendment changed matters to 365 days?

You tell me. In any case Harrow can be asked if it enforces in holidays.

I think the general effect is in effect and the subsequent order just amends the operational schedule which doesn't specify term times:

2. The general effect of the (Prohibiton of Stopping Outside Schools) (Amendment) Order will be to amend The Harrow (Prohibition of Stopping Outside Schools) Traffic Order 1997, so that in the length of street specified in the Schedule to this notice between 8.30 a.m. to 9.30 a.m. and 3 p.m. to 4.30 p.m. Mondays to Fridays during school term times would be prohibited.

Schedule
Vehicles not to stop on School Markings when the Sign is displayed Mondays to Fridays between 8.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. and between 3 p.m. and 4.30 p.m.

There are 14 possibly relevant notices I think - have a look.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/notice?text=west+end+lane+school+harrow&categorycode=G108000000&noticetypes=&location-postcode-1=&location-distance-1=1&location-local-authority-1=The+London+Borough+of+Harrow%253AHarrow&numberOfLocationSearches=1&start-publish-date=&end-publish-date=&edition=&london-issue=&edinburgh-issue=&belfast-issue=&sort-by=latest-date&results-page-size=10&results-page=1
« Last Edit: July 29, 2025, 11:59:56 am by stamfordman »

As I read it ..

'Schedule
Vehicles not to stop on School Markings when the Sign [which provides for a prohibition 'during school term times'] is displayed Mondays to Fridays between 8.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. and between 3 p.m. and 4.30 p.m.'


Anyway OP, I suggest you draw up a draft and post here.