3. Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
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Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
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I recently parked up on a side street when visiting a friend to find a ticket on my dash when I returned. There was no road markings to indicate that side of the street was for permit holders. I challenged it immediately but of course was rejected. I added the photo I took to show there was no white lines but this apparently wasn't enough. Looking at street view on google, the lines are much clearer but these images are 7 months old and there has clearly been some work removing the markings completely. Should I just pay the charge now my informal representation failed or battle on?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/3N8EqaB2GR116Xw9A

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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #1 on: »
This is the image I took and submitted as evidence to show there is no white lines. More can be taken if needed but this side of the street had no markings, had I seen them I clearly would of checked the signage first.  :D

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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #2 on: »
All they are interested in is your money; nothing else counts at all. We don't see many S-o-T PCNs but it seems they are just as venal and rapacious as the notorious London councils that are 90% of the posts on here.  The whole point of bay markings is to indicate to a motorist that it is a marked parking bay, therefore he must look for the sign giving the parking requirements of that bay, like whether payment is needed, or it is for permit-holders only, like yor situation. NO markings means no need to look for a sign, which could be some distance away.

Councils ruthlessly game the system to get the money in so issue Fob-Off letters to all informal representation, knowing that most people then cough-up.  Here, looking at GSV of 2023, the markings have virtually disappeared so advice is to wait for the Notice to Owner, and send in your reps again. However, post them here so we can see if we can make them stronger.

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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #3 on: »
Thank you for the advice. I foolishly assumed that it would be cancelled on submission of my evidence showing the white lines have huge breaks in them. Having read various threads on here it appears any form of evidence would do any good.
Do I wait 28 from receiving the informal decision to take things further or is it 28 days from when the parking ticket was issued?
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #4 on: »
If you want to stand your ground, you must now wait for the Notice to Owner, sent to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate for the car.  Is this you ? Please let us know if it isn't as this complicates matters.
Assuming you are the owner, on receipt of the NtO , you then submit formal representations, accompanied by evidence, (photos).  At this point, the discount option is lost, but on the other hand the penalty doesn't increase any more, so if they refuse you, you register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, which would be a PITA for them, as they would then have to prepare an evidence pack and find out, no doubt, that your evidence is correct !

It all depends on your attitude to risk.
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #5 on: »
@ben.unwin the first point that must be made is: do not rush to pay the discounted penalty. The notice to owner will demand the full amount, but as long as you make a representation within 14 days the discount will be reoffered in the formal rejection.

That being said, I have no hesitation in saying that this PCN should be taken all the way to the tribunal. The road markings have to be adequate and in this case they're plainly not. The fact of the matter is that the council will always reject and they won't repaint the road markings until the tribunal refuses to uphold a PCN (and even then they might not bother as 99% of people just pay up).

I will also request the traffic order for this bay, you never know it might not exist.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2024, 12:24:27 am by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #6 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #7 on: »
The car is owned and belongs to me.
I have still not received anything through the post though?
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote
I have still not received anything through the post though?
Are you the owner, and is the address on the V5 Registration Certificate correct in all detail. The Notice to Owner is sent to this address.
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on April 24, 2024, 11:24:43 am
Quote
I have still not received anything through the post though?
Are you the owner, and is the address on the V5 Registration Certificate correct in all detail. The Notice to Owner is sent to this address.
+1, also the council has six months to serve a notice to owner so they're in no rush.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #10 on: »
Yes all the details are correct. I've checked my V5 and its all up to date.
On another note I went past the same area that I received the ticket and there were multiple tickets on other cars.
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #11 on: »
The facts as per GSV dated 9 months ago are that the markings are very worn, but IMO not invisible, and also that there was a traffic sign immediately ahead of your car and no more than 10 feet away.

Certain win at adjudication on these grounds as they stand? I don't think so.

I think you would need to develop the issue of markings in any reps and not simply assert that you didn't see them.
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #12 on: »
The notice to owner has finally arrived!
Please advice and help me fight!  ;D

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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #13 on: »
Having just looked on GSV for where you parked, (outside No 214), here is the GSV view: -

https://maps.app.goo.gl/b8kMNjPDae7rBc2c7

See any marked bay there ? No, thought not. So you need to submit a formal representation based on your informal reps emphasising the complete absence of any bay markings. With their absence you are under no duty whatsoever to seek to find a bay sign giving the conditions of parking in the bay.
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Re: Stoke-on-Trent, Code 16, Cauldron Road - Parked in a permit space
« Reply #14 on: »
@ben.unwin here you go:

Dear Stoke-on-Trent City Council,

The alleged contravention did not occur, because the road markings have been neglected for such a long time that they have vanished entirely, so upon parking I had no idea I was parked in a designated parking place. Had there been a bay present I would have looking for the regulatory signs for the bay, but no bay is marked at this location either properly or at all.

If a motorist parks on a seemingly unrestricted road outside of any zone or bay, there is no duty to speculatively check for upright signs on the off-chance that the local authority might have installed parking bays the markings of which have completely vanished. I refer you to the supporting photos I sent with my informal representations which I require you to reconsider afresh.

Even if I had seen the regulatory signs (which I did not), there would have been no way for me to know the exactly boundaries of the designated parking place.

In the circumstances the council has failed to discharge its duties under regulation 18(1)(a) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, and it follows that no contravention occurred.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online via the council website and make sure to take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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