3. Southwark - PCN Code 12
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #15 on: »

Any suggestions anyone? 
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #16 on: »
OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link in your first post.

Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we will send you a Notice of Rejection..'

So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.

This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.

As I see the key issues regarding procedure:

Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the parties, namely your company and BMW;

Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject to your company's terms and conditions; 

I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;

The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle when the lease vehicle is not available;

The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's arrangements and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to the lease agreement Ts and Cs;

Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?

In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the alternative, what
was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?

You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was this your name and personal address or name and company address?

OP, over to you.
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on March 20, 2025, 10:46:33 am
OP, for some reason I can't access the docs through the link in your first post.

Anyway, the council's letter states: 'if you do nothing..we will send you a Notice of Rejection..'

So, do nothing as regards Southwark and wait for the NOR.

This NTO is a total nonsense IMO.

As I see the key issues regarding procedure:

Your company leases a vehicle from BMW for the company's use subject to the Ts and Cs of the lease agreement between the parties, namely your company and BMW;

Within your company, this is allocated to you to drive subject to your company's terms and conditions; 

I presume that BMW arrange for servicing;

The BMW/company Ts and Cs provide for a replacement vehicle when the lease vehicle is not available;

The vehicle went in for service, pursuant to BMW's arrangements and BMW hired a vehicle from wherever pursuant to the lease agreement Ts and Cs;

Question: did you collect this vehicle when you took the lease vehicle in to the nominated garage or was it delivered to you?

In either case, what documents did you personally sign? In the alternative, what
was signed by BMW and do you have copies of either?

You received a NTO dated *** with you named as addressee. Was this your name and personal address or name and company address?

OP, over to you.



Many thanks for replying.    What you have assumed is broadly correct,

As you were unable to access the links provided originally, here a summary of everything to date together with fresh links to the relevant documents:

1.  22-11-2024
Here is the agreement I signed for the “Temporary Hire Car”.  The document states that I (my personal name) am the "authorised driver”.  It does not reference my Ltd company anywhere on the document. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w5u2YrMqf8teCP9RdzBP0mI2PnENPLn-/view?usp=sharing

Fortunately this document does make reference to “Customer Reg Number”.  I have an invoice from the leasing company which matches the registration number shown in this document.  But is that sufficient evidence to prove that the hire car was a temporary replacement for my leased car?

2.  24-11-24
The PCN is issued to the “Temporary Hire Car”.  Whilst the photos provided by Southwark show the PCN attached to the windscreen, when I returned the ticket was nowhere to be seen.  It was certainly NOT attached to the car.

3.  17-01-2025
Here's the 1st NTO issued to the company who owns the "Temporary Hire Car” which received the PCN :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing

4.  07-02-2025
The NTO was reissued to me (my personal name) - I presume this is because the hire company provided my name as the “driver of the vehicle”. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vqLfzKSPRXd28Mpd3xyBZoWRFJjBLe5n/view?usp=sharing

Whilst I acknowledge I was the driver of the vehicle, any parking fines were the responsibility of my LTD company:


5.  10-03-25
Southwark requested a copy of the “hire agreement” with my LTD company.  However I have no such document.  The only written correspondence I have is the agreement dated 22/11/2024 (see no. 1 above) which does not reference my LTD company (only reference my personal name as the driver of the vehicle)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wBN-8tUgCFLAW_cPHhS6GaXC9XolvlVi/view?usp=sharing


6.  24-03-2025
Notice of Rejection addressed to me (my personal name):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vpLVJKxFSxG17MQ9ueuogSwzie0QMJcX/view?usp=sharing

Where do I stand now?  What action should I take now?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2025, 07:15:01 pm by samosa »
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #18 on: »
Any thoughts anyone?

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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #19 on: »
1.  Take a screenshot of their payment status and report back.

2. You now have a NOR so you must decide to appeal or not.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #20 on: »
Register an appeal:

Grounds:
b)the recipient—

(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question,

and,

Procedural impropriety.

Just get it done pl. Elect for personal hearing(it'll be by video or phone).

You can make 'further representations' AKA supplementary points later to support/add to those in your original reps.

Let us know when your appeal is registered pl.

To be clear on the substantive legal point, it is the COUNCIL's burden to prove and not yours to rebut that you may be considered to be the keeper for the purposes of the Traffic Management Act.

Can't wait to see their evidence which they should upload to the tribunal website at least 7 days prior to the hearing and copy separately to you!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2025, 03:51:29 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on April 03, 2025, 03:47:52 pm
Register an appeal:

Grounds:
b)the recipient—

(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question,

and,

Procedural impropriety.

Just get it done pl. Elect for personal hearing(it'll be by video or phone).

You can make 'further representations' AKA supplementary points later to support/add to those in your original reps.

Let us know when your appeal is registered pl.

To be clear on the substantive legal point, it is the COUNCIL's burden to prove and not yours to rebut that you may be considered to be the keeper for the purposes of the Traffic Management Act.

Can't wait to see their evidence which they should upload to the tribunal website at least 7 days prior to the hearing and copy separately to you!

Many thanks for your reply.  For the avoidance of doubt, I am submitting the following on the Notice of Appeal:

Section 5
  • I was not the owner of the vehicle at the relevant time
    and
    There has been an procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority

Section 6 - Details of Appeal
I will explain that "I have provided the LA with the details of the Ltd company (my employer) who are responsible for any parking fines, but the council has been uncooperative and continued to pursue me"

Is that all correct or have I missed something?


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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #22 on: »
The appeals process requires you to register an appeal at which stage you can submit skeleton grounds, as here.

The authority are then notified and required to submit their evidence.

At which point you may make what's known as 'further representations', in effect the substantive appeal.

You're at the first stage.

Come back when you've received confirmation that it's been registered.
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #23 on: »
Please please screenshot the website page as if to challenge. Before you lodge the appeal.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on April 16, 2025, 06:08:29 pm
The appeals process requires you to register an appeal at which stage you can submit skeleton grounds, as here.

The authority are then notified and required to submit their evidence.

At which point you may make what's known as 'further representations', in effect the substantive appeal.

You're at the first stage.

Come back when you've received confirmation that it's been registered.



Ok folks, the Tribunal Date has been set for 02/07/2025.   I've not heard anything from Southwark council since the letter from the tribunal service (dated 23/04/2025). 

What happens in the interim?   Am I supposed to do anything, lodge any further supporting information?

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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #25 on: »
What does your NOA contain? You can check the Tribunal portal to view their evidence.
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on May 18, 2025, 03:45:18 pm
What does your NOA contain? You can check the Tribunal portal to view their evidence.

That doesn't appear to be any submission from the council.  Below is a screenshot of everything I can see.  It looks like only my initial submission is shown. 

Is there something I should do at this stage?



https://photos.app.goo.gl/JPms4N9DwQ13vRsbA
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #27 on: »
No unless the tribunal ask you anything wait until the council upload their evidence. If they don,t you win
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Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #28 on: »
@samosa Have you kept a record of all screenshots re status* of prices and dates? In my experience. this council say they serve evidence when they haven't so I would check the portal.  Make up a reason and click continue which takes you to the page.

*It says this:

The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 very soon. Please pay £130.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Fri, 7 Mar 2025. You cannot make representations twice


This is an unlawful demand for money.  Do you want me to represent you?

Case here

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/southwark-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-of-certain-types-of-vehicle/msg66338/#msg66338

***

This thread shows how aggrieved I am by all this:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/attention-all-recipients-of-pcns-from-lambeth-lewisham-andor-southwark-proposed-/
« Last Edit: May 18, 2025, 08:49:02 pm by Hippocrates »
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I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
« Reply #29 on: »
Hey everyone

Southwark council uploaded their evidence to the Tribunal portal (and served it to me by email) on 6th June 2025.

Here's the redacted version of everything:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TpO0hGVMrfJ187UO6RXbZ8KgwoGi8VpY?usp=sharing

The key points in summary are:
  • I had a replacement vehicle provided to me by BMW whilst the company pool car was in the dealership for maintenance
  • The replacement vehicle was hired by BMW through a specialist hire company.  They delivered the vehicle to me and noted my details (name, address, drivers license copy etc) as the person the vehicle was released to. 
  • The car received a ticket issued by Southwark. Their photographic evidence shows the ticket attached to the vehicle.  However, the PCN was not attached to the car when we returned to it.  The first we knew a ticket had been issued was when the hire company notified us.
  • I provided Southwark with details of my company who are legally responsible for the fine and who are willing to pay the PCN.  However the LA demanded I provide a hire agreement.  They refused to reissue the NTO and this is why we are now at this stage.




What do you suggest I do from here?



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  3. Southwark - PCN Code 12