3. Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
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Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
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Hi all,

Hope you can help me. Just got back from abroad and was surprised to receive this in the post. It says online I can still pay £80 by Tuesday 17th June 2025. I see that @Hippocrates has beaten this PCN before here but I'm not sure how - https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/southwark-50r-contravention-prohibited-right-turn/

I haven't driven in London in years but this to me seems like a very chaotic junction. I was coming from across - Ann moss way. I looked through my dashcam footage (bear in mind the dashcam footage is brighter than real life and positioned higher on the windscreen). It's very dark a 23.13pm at night. Approaching the junction - the No right turn sign on the right side gets blocked by 3 other signs and trees and then I had to observe cyclists both ways. The sign also gets blocked by high vehicles. After I entered I had to avoid the bus lane. Then I looked right to read the Neptune street Controlled Sign to make sure I could enter so missed the no right turn sign on the left. I did briefly glimpse at it and thought it was no right turn for buses up ahead later. In the end, after entering I decided to just do a 3 point turn and went out again. I have attached screenshots from my dashcam as well as the signage is slightly different to google street view.



Google Street View:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XZ4pYV5suL1LZJ9L9

Thank you in advance for your help. Happy to buy you coffee! Many thanks!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2025, 10:00:01 pm by Bliss »
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote
I see that @Hippocrates has beaten this PCN before here but I'm not sure how
The London Tribunals case number isn't on that link. but it is a 'technical' appeal based on council mismanagement of the enforcement process, and in this case, a fatal error of content in a PCN. However, this may have been corrected now, so please post all sides of the PCN so it can be checked.

I don't think you have any strong appeal argument based on signage, because there are two signs, and you say in your narrative that you did see one of them.
I'm puzzled that you have posted extracts from your dashcam showing the signage when exiting Neptune St. You turned right into Neptune Street, so they are surely irrelevant. Have you got dashcam content of your approach and right-turn ?
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #3 on: »
Hiya, thanks for the prompt reply! Apologies I should've been clearer.

The dashcam from top to bottom is me from the start - exiting Ann moss way > turning left into Lower road > then Right into Neptune Road.
If the Left side No right turn sign had remained on the Bus lane sign like it's shown on Google Street View I would've immediately understood and not turned right. But as you can see when I exit ann moss way > the Right Side no right turn sign on Lower junction road are had to see and easily obscured by vans, especially at 11pm at night.

But the way that they have moved the Left side No Right turn sign at the junction separated by a bus lane - I assumed it was for the later junction ahead or related to the buses. As I was already looking into Neptune Street to read the sign whether I can enter the controlled zone sign. In the end I wasn't sure so as soon as I entered Neptune street I did a 3 point turn and came back out again.

Would it be worth appealing? Or would that make me miss out on paying the £80 half price amount?

Here are the rest of the PCN:








Many thanks!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2025, 02:08:50 am by Bliss »
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #4 on: »
PM received. Say they cannot issue a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the notice.

Also, please screenshot their webpage before and after you make a representation.
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 17, 2025, 11:57:13 am
PM received. Say they cannot issue a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the notice.

Also, please screenshot their webpage before and after you make a representation.

Just received a reply that they've rejected my Representation. It's just a standard letter - doesn't really counter any of the defences I put forth. Not sure how to proceed from here? Thank you.
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: Bliss on July 10, 2025, 12:52:33 am

Just received a reply that they've rejected my Representation. It's just a standard letter - doesn't really counter any of the defences I put forth. Not sure how to proceed from here? Thank you.

Please post up your reps and the NoR. Also before and after screenshots as requested by @Hippocrates.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2025, 07:40:34 am by John U.K. »
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on June 17, 2025, 11:57:13 am
PM received. Say they cannot issue a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the notice.

Also, please screenshot their webpage before and after you make a representation.

Hiya, sorry it's the first time I've ever had to do this. Here are the details as requested. Thank you in advance.

Webpage before representation:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UT_ZVAiGaUpXGJQ5eYaEKH-j_ixTABmJ/view?usp=drive_link

Webpage After rep:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mwtfuYIy2_CC6iSUL2WVTMwHmirXKrLR/view?usp=drive_link

Challenge and Rep:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bbAkvZaXv6QpDtTqEM-Mjb0IrEiMkAIK/view?usp=drive_link

Council's Response to keeper:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XAocnOtvSsxjvlHOHIolP8lTZ_-TMFSN/view?usp=drive_link

And now after the rep and council's response on 7th July - the webpage says: "The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £240.00 on Tue, 29 Jul 2025. Please pay £80.00 now."

Thank you again
« Last Edit: July 18, 2025, 08:53:14 pm by Bliss »
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #8 on: »
I suggest Tribunal time.
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@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on July 19, 2025, 12:58:53 pm
I suggest Tribunal time.

I see - can i ask what percentage chance i will win a tribunal? I can't really afford to pay £240 if i lose. And i don't really understand how to defend in terms of the charge certificate though. Does that error in the pcn makes it completely  invalid? Ive read previous posts on the topic but still not really clear on the matter. Is there any article/law you could point me to so i can better defend myself in the tribunal?

Thank you.
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #10 on: »
You are not going to pay £240 in any case and the website error is a very strong point of appeal.
Logged
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on July 19, 2025, 08:19:43 pm
You are not going to pay £240 in any case and the website error is a very strong point of appeal.

Do you mind pm or pointing me in the right direction of the law of what the website error is so i can file the defence for the tribunal? Thank you
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #12 on: »
« Last Edit: July 20, 2025, 09:58:15 am by Hippocrates »
Logged
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on July 20, 2025, 09:54:28 am
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X-S2mL2jygApHh74b1fH3V6RvcUwYQuK/view

Not quite at this stage yet.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/more-penalties-from-lewisham-council-leahurst-road/msg73887/#msg73887

Thanks for the swift response! So where do I go from here - shall I start the appeal now? I've never done this before and am worried about the deadlines.

They rejected my representation on 8th July - and said in 14 days (which is this Tuesday) the fine will go up from £80.
Whilst on the website it says the fine will increase on Tuesday 29th July to £240.

Thank you in advance.
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Re: Southwark 50r - prohibited right turn - Lower Road Junction Neptune Street
« Reply #14 on: »
You have time.
Logged
@Incandescent!

I AM ABLE TO TAKE ON MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. I HATE RETIREMENT.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"
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