3. Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place  (Read 485 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2024, 12:39:11 am »
@LoneStartState as John says, read the guidance to post the notice of rejection.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2024, 10:38:17 pm »
Apologies

See below the 4 pages of the NOR.  The reps I submitted are in reply 13 of this thread.




Logged

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2024, 02:45:55 pm »
Well it's really now just a question of whether you want to put the council to proof on the question of the camera (which is not really something that should be stated in representations, you can only put someone to proof in contested legal judicial and before filing a notice of appeal, there are no judicial proceedings).

Anyway, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like to pursue this.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2024, 12:58:07 am »
Thanks for the offer CP in your PM.

In this instance I'd like to represent my partner and will get her to authorise me as her representative.  I've already told her if we don't win at tribunal, I'll cover the extra £35.  I'm treating this as a learning curve for the process.

I'm planning to draft something this weekend.  It will mainly be the contravention did not occur/lack of camera approval point.

I'll look through similar threads on here in the meantime and post the draft on here for critique.

Does their poor NOR response have any grounds in itself?  Their claim a human observed the contravention live is a flat out lie given the camera system is automated as stated by the manufacturer. 
They claim the vehicle was in the bus lane for "over 30m" which is untrue if Google Maps measurements are reliable.  The top of the BUS LANE text to the bus lane end is 33m in itself.  The start of the video the vehicle is past that point already and does not enter until notably later.  It's just again dishonest on Slough's part.  Maybe I'm focussing too much on that.

There's also a disparity between the restrictions on the signage and the Bus Lane Order for the Sussex Place bus lane.  The order states the prohibition is at all times (as opposed to 7-10am and 3-7pm on signage) and also states the bus lane extends 68m east of Dolphin Road.  Google Maps has that bus lane at only 43m length.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 01:02:23 am by LoneStartState »
Logged

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2024, 12:48:42 pm »
Quote from: LoneStartState on June 27, 2024, 12:58:07 am
There's also a disparity between the restrictions on the signage and the Bus Lane Order for the Sussex Place bus lane.  The order states the prohibition is at all times (as opposed to 7-10am and 3-7pm on signage) and also states the bus lane extends 68m east of Dolphin Road.  Google Maps has that bus lane at only 43m length.
Honestly this is the only thing you mention that is properly arguable, all the other points are irrelevant.

The argument to be made is that the signs do not convey the effect of the order, and that is a breach of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

There are a few examples here where LATOR is mentioned, just search column A and you'll find a few.

Binding authority for the proposition that the adjudicator can allow an appeal based on a failure by the council to comply with LATOR is found in Nottingham City Council, R (on the application of) v Bus Lane Adjudicator & Ors [2017] EWHC 430 (Admin).

Lastly for non-London cases it's always worth checking that the copy of the PCN that the council submits to the tribunal is a 100% perfect copy of the one served on the Appellant, as non-London councils have quite a high propensity for getting this wrong. If you notice any discrepancies, that's a procedural impropriety and the best case we have on this point is Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council (NG00044-2201, 7 March 2022).

I'd recommend that once you've received the council evidence you draft a skeleton argument and put it on here for review. When registering the appeal just put "I rely on my formal representations" and leave it at that, there's no point in showing your hand first. Obviously make sure to request a video hearing and not a decision on the papers, you will be asked this question after the council has uploaded its evidence.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2024, 10:32:44 pm »
OK Brill

Appeal submitted relying on formal reps with me listed as the appellant's representative.

Will update in due course.
Logged

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2024, 11:16:12 pm »
Council evidence was received Friday.  Unfortunately I was away camping from Friday to Monday and have been looking at the evidence today. 

They submitted a more up to date TRO that includes the correct prohibition times.  The VCA approval they submitted is for the BLADM055 TES Digital Systems (TEMDIGI) fixed cameras that was shown in the DFT URL linked in post number 6.

I'm drafting a skeleton argument asap but obviously there isn't a great deal of time as I'm again away on Thursday evening.  I'll try and get something for review asap.

Logged

John U.K.

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2024, 07:23:47 am »
Date for the appeal hearing?
Please post up the Council's summary of why they believe the appeal should be rejected.
Logged

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2024, 02:14:35 pm »
Hi John

I haven't selected a date yet.  If I choose one sufficiently far into the future can I still upload evidence/documents after making the hearing selection?  The TPT website gave me the impression that once a hearing type and date was selected, no more evidence/documents such as a skeleton argument etc would be able to be added and the hearing selection needs to be made before this Friday the 12th.

I'll post appeal summary this evening although when looking through their evidence I don't think I saw a summary by them, just the PCNs, NORs, TRO, VCA certificate etc.  Will double check.

Thanks
Logged

John U.K.

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2024, 02:40:56 pm »
Quote
The TPT website gave me the impression that once a hearing type and date was selected, no more evidence/documents such as a skeleton argument etc would be able to be added

I thought this sounded a bit odd so I had a rummage on the TPT site and found

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/want-to-appeal/

If you click on the hyperlink 'Evidence' you get a long pop-up which includes this sentence:

Quote
Don’t worry if you do not have all evidence you would like to provide to hand when submitting your appeal. It can be added later as your case progresses.

Which leaves me wondering as to how come you've got an evidence pack if you've not yet registered an appeal?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 02:55:21 pm by John U.K. »
Logged
Like Like x 1 View List

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2024, 05:10:12 pm »
Just to clarify

I registered an appeal relying on prior formal representations.  Council then uploaded evidence pack a few days later last Friday but I was away until Monday and couldn't deal with it until yesterday.

I now need to select hearing type and give a date but wasn't sure if I would be able to submit further evidence after this. 

Think I should be ok to just submit hearing preference and submit a skelly soon after within a reasonable timeframe which I shall do.

Thanks

Logged

Phantomcrusader

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2024, 01:14:48 am »
The PCN says the penalty must be paid “no later than” when the new regs now say “must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served.” The same applies to the time for making representations. These raise an old legal point based on the word “within”. It’s missing this ground of appeal: (i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement. Also missing this ground: (g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid. Also: (i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.


The Notice of Rejection below “Dear” wrongly states the The Transport Act 2000 when it is now the TMA 2004 that is relevant and it fails to give you a proper deadline for when a Charge Certificate may be served and to indicate the nature of an adjudicator’s power to award costs.
Logged

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2024, 11:17:58 am »
Update: Hearing is 7th August

@cp8759

Would it be possible to have a copy of the full FOI letter for the camera make/model you received from the council please?

Feel free to redact personal info etc.

Thanks

Logged

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2024, 10:01:41 pm »
Quote from: LoneStartState on July 24, 2024, 11:17:58 am
Would it be possible to have a copy of the full FOI letter for the camera make/model you received from the council please?
@LoneStartState I have emailed it to you.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Winner Winner x 1 View List

LoneStartState

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2024, 12:13:19 am »
Appeal was dismissed. C'est la vie.

Unfortunately I left myself very little time to write the skeleton argument/response to council submissions and so only uploaded it Monday morning 48 hours prior to the hearing.  Already risking an adjournment but the council rep stated they had read it.

My argumentation re the camera certificate was probably not optimal so that fell by the wayside. 

De minimis seemed to be a complete no go as well with this adjudicator.  I was constantly reminded that if the vehicle was in the bus lane then a contravention occurred and that's all that needed to be decided regardless of intrusion distance.  Likewise length of time before restriction end irrelevant.

The missing grounds identified by Phantom Crusader did hold some weight but not enough to amount to PI.

Thanks for all the guidance.  Never attended the tribunal before so had some value as a learning process.  At least the council had to actually work for their money.

Full decision below.


Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
« previous next »
  3. Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place