Author Topic: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place  (Read 311 times)

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LoneStartState

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Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« on: April 18, 2024, 11:45:31 pm »
Hi there again

My girlfriend has been sent a PCN for being in a bus lane in Slough.  See attached for redacted PCN.

Video is here

https://youtu.be/Ev1QTJBuLnA

Time of alleged contravention is just under 4 minutes prior to restriction end and as can be seen, not a huge deal of intrusion prior to the lane ending anyways (~15 metres, maybe less based on measure distance on Google Maps).

GSV location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/iG7k3gziDoZpNuBR7

Hoping as an initial start that de minimis/plea for discretion can apply for this.

Let me know if you guys spot anything else

LSS
« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 08:08:22 pm by cp8759 »

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Incandescent

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2024, 12:37:17 am »
Well, of course it is the usual money-grubbing PCN we see so often on here, but with her being 4 minutes before the end time, she might struggle with de minimis, I'm afraid. The problem with this argument, is it's subjective, there is no definition of de minimis. It it was a minute or less, you can argue that a car clock can never be accurate to the exact second and there are successful appeals that support this.

Of course you can try it, but you'd be on stronger ground if we can find a procedural impropriety somewhere, but at the moment, I don't see one, the PCN looks OK to me. The video shows her driving boldly into the start of the bus lane and presumably all the way to the end of it, true ?

So wait a bit and see what the others say. If it were me I'd submit reps on a de minimis basis to see what they come back with. As this is a postal PCN under the TMA 2004, they have 56 days to reply.

Other thing to mention is that the council may have published guidance on enforcement that covers this, but you'd have to search around for it. If that acknowledged de minimis, and gave the limit they work to,  then you'd be in a stronger position, I think.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 12:41:02 am by Incandescent »

cp8759

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2024, 11:06:19 pm »
Well the starting point is that we need the traffic order, so I have requested that. I have also asked for the make and model of the CCTV camera, so that we can check whether it is properly approved.

In order to buy as as much time as possible to get the information back, I'd recommend making a representation on 28 April as doing so should get the discount extended for several weeks. A basic please for discretion / de minimis will do for the purposes of just buying us some time, but still put a draft on here in the first instance.

It would also be worth double checking that the signs visible on google street view are actually still there, you never know what might turn up.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2024, 09:27:19 pm »
Thanks both for your feedback.  See below draft representations.  Any feedback welcome.  Will plan to submit tomorrow.

"Dear Slough Borough Council

I wish to make representations against PCN SB41647918 on the following grounds:

Plea for discretion
Alleged contravention is de minimis

I was returning from a day trip to Windsor and staying with family nearby in Langley.  Whilst travelling down the A4 and seeing the bus lane ending, I began to merge left into the unoccupied lane I saw in the distance.  Merging left prematurely, my vehicle entered the Sussex place bus lane for approximately 2 seconds and 15-20m prior to its end.  This was the final bus lane in a series of bus lanes spanning an approximate 250m stretch of the A4.  No unfair advantage was gained by me over other road users through this premature action. The detection time on the PCN shows there was less than 4 minutes (or roughly 1.6%) of the restriction period remaining.

I would ask that you consult with statutory guidance and consider cancelling the PCN in the first instance exercising your discretionary powers based on the points raised above. 

In the alternative, I would request the council to cancel the PCN on the basis of the alleged contravention being too trivial to enforce, or de minimis.  This is in light of the time left prior to restriction end, the distance and time the vehicle was in the bus lane, and the lack of any advantage gained over other road users.

Thank you in advance"

cp8759

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2024, 12:25:31 am »
Yes that's spot on for present purposes.

Are you able to go back and check the condition of the signs?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2024, 11:27:03 pm »
Reps submitted today with screenshot captured.

Unfortunately neither myself or girlfriend are that local but may be able to check in the interim period as her family are around there.  From memory she believes the bus lane sign was there for that stretch.

Will let you know of any decision outcome in due course.

cp8759

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« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 06:02:27 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2024, 11:14:59 pm »
Thanks for this info.

I guess this allows a safe assumption those cameras are not approved devices.

No response to reps from council as of yet.

Incandescent

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2024, 12:07:43 am »
Thanks for this info.

I guess this allows a safe assumption those cameras are not approved devices.

No response to reps from council as of yet.
So it would seem.

Regulation 4 on what is an approved device : -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/4/made
Then one looks at Schedule 1 : -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/1/made

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2024, 11:16:31 pm »
Hello again

I submitted reps on behalf of my girlfriend for this PCN.  The submission stated an acknowledgement email would be sent that she didn't receive.  There's a possibility I might have accidentally entered an incorrect email address when submitting the reps. 

I've been tracking the ticket on the portal. Early last week it was still at 35.  I've checked today and it's now back to the full amount of 70.  Just getting her to double check her email inbox/spam folders for any possible NOR.

If I've accidentally submitted an incorrect email address and an NOR was sent to that incorrect email address, the PCN can still be appealed to the adjudicators with the original PCN ref and VRM? 

I will get her to contact SBC as a matter of urgency to make a data rectification notice and get the NOR in the meantime anyways.

Thanks in advance


cp8759

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2024, 12:06:42 am »
If I've accidentally submitted an incorrect email address and an NOR was sent to that incorrect email address, the PCN can still be appealed to the adjudicators with the original PCN ref and VRM? 
If the NoR has been issued, you can ask the council for the appeal verification code. If they won't provide it, I have a manual workaround.

But most councils will provide a further copy of the NoR on request. They have 56 days to serve it, so odds are it's not been issued yet.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2024, 08:30:57 pm »
Update:

SBC were contacted through their contact the parking team form on their website last week.  They responded the next day in a way that suggested they didn't read the email and essentially stated "this is not an email address to challenge PCNs, you must follow the statutory process, do not send emails about PCNs to this address".  I merely asked for an NOR if issued or the appeal verification code and that the email address may have been mistyped.

Anyways I went back on to the PCN portal for Slough.  The outstanding amount is still 70.  I clicked appeal and to my surprise found I could submit representations still.  So I resubmitted making explicit mention of the email address error and including the correct email address with these representations (screenshots captured)  An acknowledgement email was received for the submission this time round which confirms my suspicions about the email mistype. 

I did also ask for the NOR if issued and an appeal verification code for the tribunal within the rep submission.  Also added the camera approval point which was not in the first submission.

Hopefully this doesn't lead to a snowball of confusion for the council.

cp8759

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2024, 01:37:18 am »
@LoneStartState have you tried phoning the council?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

LoneStartState

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2024, 12:50:37 am »
No need to call in the end.

I've been away but NOR received 13 June with discount having been reset.  I can't seem to attach NOR currently due to an "upload folder full, speak to adminisatrator" message on posting but will try again tomorrow.

Just for reference and clarification, two sets of reps were submitted after it was believed an incorrect email address was submitted by accident with the first rep submission.  First rep submission on the 29 April was:

"Dear Slough Borough Council

I wish to make representations against PCN SB41647918 on the following grounds:

Plea for discretion
Alleged contravention is de minimis

I was returning from a day trip to Windsor and staying with family nearby in Langley.  Whilst travelling down the A4 and seeing the bus lane ending, I began to merge left into the unoccupied lane I saw in the distance.  Merging left prematurely, my vehicle entered the Sussex place bus lane for approximately 2 seconds and 15-20m prior to its end.  This was the final bus lane in a series of bus lanes spanning an approximate 250m stretch of the A4.  No unfair advantage was gained by me over other road users through this premature action. The detection time on the PCN shows there was less than 4 minutes (or roughly 1.6%) of the restriction period remaining.

I would ask that you consult with statutory guidance and consider cancelling the PCN in the first instance exercising your discretionary powers based on the points raised above. 

In the alternative, I would request the council to cancel the PCN on the basis of the alleged contravention being too trivial to enforce, or de minimis.  This is in light of the time left prior to restriction end, the distance and time the vehicle was in the bus lane, and the lack of any advantage gained over other road users.

Thank you in advance
"

On realisation of the email error, follow up reps were submitted with the correct email which merely added the following camera approval section:

"Lack of camera approval

The camera SBC used to capture the alleged contravention is not an approved device.  The council is put to strict proof that they have appropriate approved device certification for the camera in question (Make: TES Small Blue Enforcement CCTV Cameras, Model: Blue Gen2) that monitors the Sussex Place bus lane.  The camera certificates available at the following link do not mention any camera remotely similar to the make and model of the one above:

https://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/tma-part-6-list-of-approved-devices/approved-device-certifications-slough.zip
"

The date on page 1 of the NOR is 13th June but on page 3 where information about appealing to the TPT the NOR date is given as the 1st May.  Will check the tribunal website ASAP to see if an appeal can still be made.

NOR seems a bit pants.  "Trust us" re camera approval, no specific addressing of the de minimis point.  Welcome any further input.

Weirdly they've claimed that the contravention was identified by an operator in real time which isn't the case.  The TES Small Blue is an automated setup with backoffice staff then subsequently assessing videos to issue the PCN.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 12:53:14 am by LoneStartState »

John U.K.

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Re: Slough Borough Council Being in a Bus Lane Sussex Place
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2024, 07:29:46 am »
Quote
I can't seem to attach NOR currently due to an "upload folder full, speak to adminisatrator" message on posting but will try again tomorrow.

Attachment space here is very limited. Have a read of

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

use an external site and post the BBCodes here.