Author Topic: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.  (Read 1071 times)

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Located in England.

Hi there,

A hire car I was driving outside of London had it's plates cloned.

During the 3 days I had it, the car racked up 10+ PCNs worth £1000s in central London (and continued to do so for other users of the hire car later).

The hire car firm kindly got involved and managed to get all PCNs with all but one council cancelled thanks to a Crime Reference Number.

However, Redbridge are refusing to do this. They say they need a full report (whatever that means - which Thames Valley Report understandably wont provide due to limited resources).


  • I am being threatened with court and bailiffs etc if I dont pay within 7 days.
  • Crime Ref supplied from Thames Valley but refused
  • It feels like this is outsourced overseas (due to language barriers in email and on phone)
  • Insisting on pictures of car (what will that show? The car is identical so doesnt help. Plus its a hire car.
  • As an aside, Redbridge have been appalling with communications, and went AWOL for weeks, putting it on pause because "it was with the manager to review", and then finally resumed proceedings. They then changed the "14 Day Deadline" to "7 Days" after I sent a somewhat pissy but factually correct email.
  • The car has numerous PCNS against it with different drivers. Clearly, common sense shows that not all hire car users are driving 2 hours to London and breaking all the traffic codes each day.

It looks like Redbridge have history over this:https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6299468/council-rejects-appeal-for-pcn-of-cloned-car

I genuinely think this could be the next big council scandal. Outsourced firms with revenue targets breaking the appeal guidelines. Im lucky I have a PLC firm on side to help support a bit but it's terrifying to think many dont.

In this instance - do Redbridge have the right to refuse a Police crime number and take me to court? Im super stressed and I feel very powerless. It's bullying and defies all common sense and discretion.

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This sounds like you have a Bailiff's Notice of Enforcement?
Please post it up, just obscure/redact your name & address and leave the rest visible.
Is the NoE addressed to you at your address? Or your company?

Did you receive an Order for Recovery (of Unpaid Penalty Charge). If so, please post that up, Leave everything visible except for your name and address. Did you submit the Witness Statement / Statutory Declaration that was attached to the OfR. I guess you didn't.
Is the OfR addressed to you at your address? Or your company?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 12:09:59 pm by Enceladus »

Thanks - not yet but been threatened with "debt being registered at Northampton County Court." if i dont supply a "full crime report" within 7 days.

Is there only the one Redbridge PCN?

Who has been threatened? You or your company?
Have you received any Charge Certificates?

Please confirm that the hire company transferred liability to you?
Did you or your company receive a Notice to Owner or a postal Penalty Charge Notices from Redbridge?

Is it correct that you challenged (submitted representations) against the NTO/PCN and were asked for further proof of the cloning? Or did they send you a Notice of Rejection?

Sorry for all the questions but it's best to nail down all of the facts.

Is there only the one Redbridge PCN?

Who has been threatened? You or your company?
Have you received any Charge Certificates?

Please confirm that the hire company transferred liability to you?
Did you or your company receive a Notice to Owner or a postal Penalty Charge Notices from Redbridge?

Is it correct that you challenged (submitted representations) against the NTO/PCN and were asked for further proof of the cloning? Or did they send you a Notice of Rejection?

Sorry for all the questions but it's best to nail down all of the facts.

Yes just one from Redbridge. Hire firm transferred it to me as per process. The PCN is in my name.

I have one Charge Certificate. This was issued incorrectly I believe and I stated my reasons in my reply to them via email to the case manager. The bullet points in the criteria do not mach the criteria to send out the certificate, as I provided evidence (Crime ref number) and appealed correctly.

The case was then put on pause in January because of radio-silence from my case manager. The Redbridge call center paused the case after I called to complain. I continued to chase via email to the named case manager and finally heard back last week from her boss. (1 month later).

I appealed with correct procedure, and now am in email communications with a senior member of the enforcement team, having been escalated after 6 weeks of radio silence from Redbridge.

Boss' title is: Business Processing Manager – Parking Management

She has emailed today and said that I have 7 days to provide a "Full Crime Report" (which isnt standard procedure and Thames Valley Police dont issue these) or else the debt will be registered at Northampton Court.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 12:41:29 pm by selfstartr »

Well did you challenge the postal PCN/NTO when it arrived?
Sounds like you did not do so since you have a subsequent Charge Certificate.
If so, that was a mistake. You've fallen out of the process.

This is a statutory process and you need to follow it or you'll end up, rightly or wrongly, with a bailiff at the door. Had you challenged the NOT/PCN in time then the Council would have had to issue a Notice of Rejection with credentials to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator where you would have almost certainly won.

The next stage will be to register the Charge at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court.

What date was the original PCN?
Did you challenge in any way? If so, when and how?

Please post up the text of the correspondence chain with the Council.

Photos of the car would have helped. Dings, dents, subtle difference with number plate surrounds, stickers, different lights things like that. Though not relevant to the current state of play.

Well did you challenge the postal PCN/NTO when it arrived?
Sounds like you did not do so since you have a subsequent Charge Certificate.
If so, that was a mistake. You've fallen out of the process.

This is a statutory process and you need to follow it or you'll end up, rightly or wrongly, with a bailiff at the door. Had you challenged the NOT/PCN in time then the Council would have had to issue a Notice of Rejection with credentials to appeal to the Independent Adjudicator where you would have almost certainly won.

The next stage will be to register the Charge at the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court.

What date was the original PCN?
Did you challenge in any way? If so, when and how?

Please post up the text of the correspondence chain with the Council.

Hi there,

Yes, the good news is I appealed at every stage correctly.

I appealed using the online form, and the hire firm posted (and emailed) a letter with this wording to support me:

Quote
Dear Sir or Madam,
I have received the above parking charge from yourself. We originally transferred liability of this offence
over to a customer, Mr x. Case reference number: TFx
It has since been brought to our attention that in fact, x wasn’t in the vehicle at all and our
registration plates of xreg have been cloned.
We have reported this to Thames Valley Police who are helping us with this matter but in the meantime if
you can please cancel the above charge made to Mr x and instead we can provide you with the crime
reference number which is as follows: x
Please do feel free to get in contact with myself if you require anything else from us.

Kind regards

This letter and my appeal was dated within the initial PCN 28 Day window. A case manager reached out and said they rejected my "Ring Doorbell Footage", despite the main evidence being an Crime Reference Number. We then reminded them of this via email.

We then heard nothing back but got a charge certificate. I then called the council, who paused the case due to radio silence from the case manager. I chased twice more over a 4 week period via the case manager's email address which brings us to last week when they finally responded, saying the Crime Reference Number isnt sufficient.

So the main issue regardless of their process errors, is them not accepting a Crime Reference Number from the Police as proof the car was cloned. Is this allowed?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 01:26:52 pm by selfstartr »

So the main issue regardless of their process errors, is them not accepting a Crime Reference Number from the Police as proof the car was cloned. Is this allowed?

No it is not, now that a CC has been issued the matter IS procedural and only possibly would the actual facts of the case come into play.

As per others, we need dates, not statements from you.

So,
The grounds of contravention pl;
Postal PCN/NTO issued to you in your name on what date?
Your representations sent on what date?
Their Notice of Rejection of Representations issued on what date?
CC issued on?

 

Located in England.

Hi there,

A hire car I was driving outside of London had it's plates cloned.

During the 3 days I had it, the car racked up 10+ PCNs worth £1000s in central London (and continued to do so for other users of the hire car later).

The hire car firm kindly got involved and managed to get all PCNs with all but one council cancelled thanks to a Crime Reference Number.

However, Redbridge are refusing to do this. They say they need a full report (whatever that means - which Thames Valley Report understandably wont provide due to limited resources).


  • I am being threatened with court and bailiffs etc if I dont pay within 7 days.
  • Crime Ref supplied from Thames Valley but refused
  • It feels like this is outsourced overseas (due to language barriers in email and on phone)
  • Insisting on pictures of car (what will that show? The car is identical so doesnt help. Plus its a hire car.
  • As an aside, Redbridge have been appalling with communications, and went AWOL for weeks, putting it on pause because "it was with the manager to review", and then finally resumed proceedings. They then changed the "14 Day Deadline" to "7 Days" after I sent a somewhat pissy but factually correct email.
  • The car has numerous PCNS against it with different drivers. Clearly, common sense shows that not all hire car users are driving 2 hours to London and breaking all the traffic codes each day.

It looks like Redbridge have history over this:https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6299468/council-rejects-appeal-for-pcn-of-cloned-car

I genuinely think this could be the next big council scandal. Outsourced firms with revenue targets breaking the appeal guidelines. Im lucky I have a PLC firm on side to help support a bit but it's terrifying to think many dont.

In this instance - do Redbridge have the right to refuse a Police crime number and take me to court? Im super stressed and I feel very powerless. It's bullying and defies all common sense and discretion.



There is too much noise and rambling in your posts making it impossible for anyone to give clear and good advice.

You need to give all dates much more clearly and upload redacted documents

Yes they do have the power to reject the crime report number etc... if you made a representation against the NTO and they sent you a notice of rejection

however, you then have the right to appeal to an independent Tribunal where an adjudicator would decide based on your evidence as well as council's evidence

if you don't appeal to the tribunal then yes it goes to Charge Certificate stage and can then be registered in court

If you did not receive the notice of rejection then you will be able to set the charge certificate aside via a witness statement once the charge certificate is registered and then the case will go to the adjudicator where you will need to submit evidence (the council will provide the adjudicator with what you have sent them though)

Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.
« Reply #10 on: »
I would like to manage this PCN for you.

Redbridge are not the most competent council in London.

They recently refused to accept a new address for a keeper without seeing written proof of it, I declined. They lost the case at the tribunal because the adjudicator picked up a flaw in their evidence before I got in the room, that the traffic order was an experimental one and had expired 2 years earlier. I had that as one of my 5 arguments.

My record against Redbridge since I started keeping decent records in 2017 is 3 cancellations at the informal stage, 4 at the formal stage, 15 Appeals not contested, 7 Appeals won and 1 appeal lost (moving traffic so tough to beat).

If selfstartr you want me on your side then please send me unredacted copies of everything. Apart from following due process, I have the following ideas:

- get a letter from the hire company listing all the PCN dates, councils and outcomes. This will show that on the balance of probabilities the car was cloned. Get some photos of the hire car from the hire company.
- ask the police if they have issued any 'full crime reports' in the last 12 months for cloning.
- ask Redbridge how many they have received in the last 12 months and to provide copies of 3 such reports with personal data redacted.
- make a complaint to Redbridge and ask them by what method they are going to prove the car in their images is the one you were driving as they have to prove their case as a first step at the tribunal.

I have a desk full of paper so will be a few days but email everything unredacted to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will get to it as soon as I can.




I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.

Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.
« Reply #11 on: »
Mr M will probably have this one to hand:-

Cloned Vehicle----The Burden of Proof

2220717836 Basil Sawyers v London Borough of Croydon

Mr. Sawyers attended the adjourned hearing along with his daughter. In the meantime, as I had directed, he had uploaded in good time some further evidence in support of his case. The evidence comprised photographs of his vehicle and an e-mail from the Metropolitan Police concerning Mr. Sawyers' complaint that the registration mark of his vehicle had been copied and applied to registration plates on a different vehicle. That is to say, his registration plate had been 'cloned'. The enforcement authority (EA) had not provided any response to this evidence.


Mr. Sawyers argues that the vehicle involved in the contravention was not his but was, instead, the vehicle with the 'cloned' registration plate. A person who wishes to 'clone' a registration plate will almost invariably apply that registration plate to a vehicle that is almost identical. That is because the purpose of the cloning is primarily to pass liability for civil road traffic contraventions like this, and possibly road traffic offences, onto the genuine holder of the registration mark for a different vehicle. That objective is much less easily achieved if the 'cloning' is easy to detect because the vehicles are obviously different. For the 'cloning' strategy to be harder to detect and frustrate, the vehicles must appear identical. Indeed, as the evidence shows, the type and colour of Mr. Sawyers' vehicle is the same as the vehicle involved in the contravention.

Mr. Sawyers has shown, however, with his photographs, that there are positive dissimilarities between his vehicle and the contravening vehicle. The contravening vehicle has inbuilt roof-rack retainers that his vehicle does not. The lower grilles of the two vehicles are different colours. The offside rear wheels have different types of wheel trim. Mr. Sawyers has complained to the Police about 'cloning' and he has received other PCNs for which he says he is not liable, including one in Oxfordshire.

For the reasons I gave in the case of Khader v. LB Tower Hamlets (2180375573, 27 October 2018), in my view there is no reverse burden of proof placed on an appellant in a case in which the issue is the identity of a vehicle rather than the identify of its owner. Rather, the burden is on an appellant merely to raise the issue of the identity of the vehicle. The outcome of this case would, however, have been the same no matter who bore the burden of proof.

The EA has failed to prove that the two vehicles are probably the same. Indeed, I find the contravening vehicle is probably not the same as Mr. Sawyers' vehicle.

I note the response of the Metropolitan Police in the e-mail of 1 July 2022. The complaint "was not recorded as a crime". If the Police take the view that no crime has been committed, or that it is of no consequence, they are completely wrong on both points. Forgery or fraudulent use of a registration mark is a criminal offence contrary to section 44 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. It can have significant impact on the victim, who may find themselves wrongly held liable for civil road traffic contraventions and may find themselves wrongly investigated for road traffic offences committed in the vehicle with the 'cloned' registration plate. The Police should, in my view, have investigated this matter.
___________________________________________

Mike

Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.
« Reply #12 on: »

Hire firm transferred it to me as per process.

Really!

It's not as per process because if you have a defence against the PCN then you have grounds for complaint to the hire company. You hired the 'real' VRM ABC, not the one in the PCN(s) they received. IMO, it is THEIR responsibility to argue that they are not the owner and not simply to pass the buck. And you appear to have adequate info that your assertion is correct.

Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.
« Reply #13 on: »
Hi there Selfstrtr,

I'm doing a TV piece about this topic for BBC London TV. Is it possible you could email me to let me know how you got on with this situation. You should be able to access my email via this post.

All the best, Jim

Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned plates.
« Reply #14 on: »
Hi there Selfstrtr,

I'm doing a TV piece about this topic for BBC London TV. Is it possible you could email me to let me know how you got on with this situation. You should be able to access my email via this post.

All the best, Jim

Hi Jim - couldn't find your email, but I've DMd you with my email using this forum's message feature :) I have another £1000+ worth of fines from Newham Council, coincidently today they are not threatening me with bailiffs. They are not accepting mine, nor BMW Inchape PLCs evidence!

Happy to chat :)