Author Topic: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay  (Read 3026 times)

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Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #15 on: »
The fact that the order is mentioned on the meter is irrelevant, unless there is a full copy of the actual text of the order on the meter as well (which there isn't). And even if there were, the fact remains that as no payment is due by a blue badge holder, a blue badge holder would not approach the machine in the first place: you see the signs park in accordance with the signs, display the blue badge and off you go. If you've parked in accordance with the signs there is no requirement to go and look at the parking meter "just in case".

If this case is properly argued on appeal I'd rate the likelihood of success at something in the region of 90%.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #16 on: »
Thanks.

I'll proceed as planned.

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #17 on: »
As expected, @cp8759, the council have issued a rejection notice, rather quickly:-

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RvCMA_MpohCjcxw__?e=nGWwYA

We will await the NTO and than make a formal appeal to the council.

I guess this may arrive when I'm away (25 June to 14 July) but I assume we will have a few weeks after then to appeal.

Help with drafting the appeal will be thankfully received.

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #18 on: »
You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #19 on: »
You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?

28 days from receipt of the NTO? But they will surely await 14 days to see if we make payment before issuing the NTO? That takes us up until 4 July and we are back on 14 July.


Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #20 on: »
You have 28 days from the date of receipt to submit representations. Is there anyone who could check your post for you?

28 days from receipt of the NTO? But they will surely await 14 days to see if we make payment before issuing the NTO? That takes us up until 4 July and we are back on 14 July.
Based on those dates you'll be fine to just wait till you get back.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #21 on: »
the NTO has now been received.

@cp8759 are you able to assist in drafting suitable representations to LBR please?

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RvGW3j8o2W92Ecupl?e=aUTUsb


Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #22 on: »
There aren't any regulations which govern local authority off-street car parks as far as I'm aware. Neither is it practical or proportionate IMO for every relevant article of an order to be stated within the car park.

Photos are not a legal requirement. In any event the council have provided clear photos showing the significant incursion of the vehicle into an adjoining bay. As photos aren't a legal requirement it follows that the absence of a photo of the noticeboard cannot be a defence.

However, given the authority's terse and incomplete response to initial reps I would focus on their attitude to discharging their duty and look for a procedural impropriety defence.

IMO, acknowledge that the car was astride 2 bays- give reasons as well if necessary- but make the point that the conditions of use displayed on the noticeboard were noted but as these did not refer to 'parking wholly within a bay' even less to the council's powers should a driver err in this way the driver did not feel it was their absolute duty to park wholly within the bay.

If the authority consider that parking in this instance gives them the power to demand a penalty then they must explain why this is not brought to drivers' attention at the site. Any response to these representations which fail to address this point must be incomplete and therefore a procedural impropriety.

OP, use whatever words you like but IMO:
Acknowledge that the car sat in 2 bays;
State clearly that the  noticeboard was read;
State your argument as regards the penalty;
Require them to respond;

..and if the payment machine gives different conditions to those on the noticeboard, highlight this discrepancy, state that it is confusing and ask why those on the machine are not replicated on the board given that certain drivers are exempt from payment and would not as a matter of course consult the machine, therefore placing them at a legal disadvantage.

They'll be other comments, I'm sure.

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #23 on: »
@Staygulf honestly you can just use the draft in reply 11 above, there isn't really any need to say anything more than that.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #24 on: »
@Staygulf honestly you can just use the draft in reply 11 above, there isn't really any need to say anything more than that.

@cp8759 Just to be sure, I used those words for the informal challenge. Are you suggesting I should merely repeat them for the formal representations or should I put more meat on the bones as suggested by H C Andersen but include those words again?

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #25 on: »
It's up to you but I would just use the same wording as used last time round. After all it's Redbridge we're talking about, so your representation will go to a mindless drone who will send you a fob-off rejection.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #26 on: »
As expected, Redbridge have rejected the representations but their response does not appear to have properly considered them.

We should now like to appeal, so help would be appreciated in drafting the appropriate wording.

@cp8759 ?

https://1drv.ms/b/c/115d8d1fa1656300/ES8hqpCfgZ9El3yh62CZGIoBpqlc-dbe_jIGDQb8DUp5GA?e=nlGY1f

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #27 on: »
@Staygulf well as the discount is not on offer it's a no-brainer to carry on, I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #28 on: »
Appeals are held at Hearing Square, Angel Square, Upper Ground Floor, Block 2, London EC1V 1NY   :o  :o  :o

What happens if I do not pay, or do not appeal?

Should you fail to pay or appeal to the parking adjudicator, then a charge certificate will be issued, increasing the charge by 50%. You have 14 days in which to pay this. There is no further right to appeal at this stage.  >:(
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Redbridge PCN code 86 out of bay
« Reply #29 on: »
Appeals are held at Hearing Square, Angel Square, Upper Ground Floor, Block 2, London EC1V 1NY  :o  :o  :o

What happens if I do not pay, or do not appeal?

Should you fail to pay or appeal to the parking adjudicator, then a charge certificate will be issued, increasing the charge by 50%. You have 14 days in which to pay this. There is no further right to appeal at this stage.  >:(

I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this. Please explain.