Author Topic: Redbridge - George Lane 31J Stopping in a box junction when prohibited  (Read 529 times)

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Glitch

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:-[
This was me. Dropped the wife off for a tattoo (at her age? but that's another story)

Don't know how to download the video but that tells the story in more detail.
I do vaguely remember this.

I need to turn left at the top of George Lane but there is a broken down vehicle blocking the lane.
I've seen it late and to avoid getting stuck behind the broken down car I position myself to the right hand lane.
I must have seen the exit clear but then realised the lane is blocked further along.
Cars coming out of Sainsbury's to the left are now also restricting my options.

I've reversed up a bit so I don't block any traffic, but no there's a car behind me so I stop.

The video does not show me entering the box. Surely it should or we don't know the whole story?
I don't know if other cars moved to avoid the broken down car.
I must have seen the exit clear as I entered the box but not clear why I'm already positioned to the right when the video starts.

Sort of (cynically) thinking the video is clipped to help them and not me.



« Last Edit: April 05, 2024, 05:10:50 pm by Glitch »

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MrChips

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Very unlikely you'll have to pay anything for this one - the video starts with you already stationary and half way in the box.  The independent adjudicators consistently require the video to show the moment of entry as otherwise there's no evidence an offence occurred at all.

You'll need to challenge this to Redbridge.  They will reject your appeal (very unreasonably).  You'll then need to commence the appeal process with the adjudicators.  Redbridge will either then fold before the hearing or else your case will get heard and you'll win.
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Glitch

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Thanks Mr Chips.

I guess there's a clue in the contravention wording - ENTERING and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

Incandescent

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Thanks Mr Chips.

I guess there's a clue in the contravention wording - ENTERING and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.
You've got it !

cp8759

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Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5LBTvHyIWs

The video is not clipped, the camera is designed by someone who knows nothing about the law and simply detects a vehicle stopping and then saves so many frames before and after the detected event. As the stoppage in this case is longer than the pre-programmed number of seconds, the entry into the box was never saved, so there is no "full" video that's been cropped, the video above is everything the council has.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Glitch

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Thanks CP, that's very good to know.

Is the broken down car still relevant? Or just go all in on the flawed evidence?
Initially I was wary about coming up with what I thought I did and an extended video showing something else.
It sounds like we won't know for sure, but don't need to.

cp8759

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The council will reject no matter what you say so I'd go for something very basic:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

The contravention alleged did not occur, please would you cancel the PCN.

Yours faithfully,

Keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Glitch

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Done!
Will await the rejection  :)

They've sent an email confirmation, unlike Tower Hamlets.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2024, 04:03:31 pm by Glitch »

Glitch

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Rejection received today. They have carefully considered the points raised in my appeal, which said:

 'The contravention did not occur. Please cancel the PCN'.






They are satisfied that I would have been aware the exit was clear before entering the box.

I'm happy to go to Tribunal with this on the basis they have not provided the video of me entering the box junction.

Glitch

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I assume I just say I rely on my formal repesentations and wait to see what Redbridge submit as evidence?

Glitch

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Re: Redbridge - George Lane 31J Stopping in a box junction when prohibited
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2024, 08:03:23 pm »

I assume I just say I rely on my formal repesentations and wait to see what Redbridge submit as evidence?

I've done this.

Away for 10 days in May so I'll postpone it until late May if necessary.

cp8759

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Re: Redbridge - George Lane 31J Stopping in a box junction when prohibited
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2024, 10:21:26 pm »
Have you requested a hearing?

You won't get a hearing that soon, there has to be at least a 21 day gap between the appeal being filed and the case being decided.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Glitch

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Re: Redbridge - George Lane 31J Stopping in a box junction when prohibited
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2024, 10:35:58 pm »
Yes I've requested a face to face hearing.
No rush on my part. I'll need to fit it in between a number of trips.

Glitch

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Re: Redbridge - George Lane 31J Stopping in a box junction when prohibited
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2024, 07:39:36 am »
Date came through last night.
Tuesday 4th June - perfect for me.

Glitch

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Less than two weeks before Tribunal.

Nothing uploaded by Redbridge yet but I guess that could go to the wire.

I have stuck with 'No contravention' and no other explanation.

I don't recall exactly what happened, only that I would not have entered the box without a clear exit and would not be lined up on the right.

Is this a case of going straight in with 'the video does not show me entering the box, therefore the contravention cannot be proved.' Sit back and keep quiet.

Or do I start with 'I wouldn't have entered the box without a clear exit. I needed to turn right at the lights up ahead. The exit was clear but the broken down car up ahead has caused other cars to block my route....but the video fails to show the issue at the time I entered the box and eventually came to a stop.

Could an adjudicator say, 'yes, but you have clearly stopped in the box and on the balance of probability....'?