Author Topic: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j  (Read 1537 times)

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Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
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Hi everyone,

Thanks in advance for your help.(Apologies in advance for the strange formatting!)

I took a Bus, taxi-ONLY-road by mistake and have been issued two PCN's for it. More specifically, the two PCN's are for contravention of 33j on Clements Road: Using a route restricted to certain vehicles. (Details are quite similar to another case recently posted, but without any information on the steps taken and outcome; relevant details have been copied here too)

Both happened on the 17th November a few hours apart, both on my way to the library. This was the first time driving down this area after some 15 years!

On the first occasion, I did not notice the sign, and on the second, I saw it but it was already too late to stop, reverse and make a safe exit at this point.

The main road suddenly converts into a Bus-ONLY Road, without adequate warning signages - the only way is to take a the narrow off-road from the main road to circumvent this. Otherwise we are stuck in the road which becomes a bus lane suddenly without being able to move out of it (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Qqe9rmKJcv1BuHg37)

After this sign, (which itself is small and confusing), the next sign is on the road which is after the leaving road, and is too late to correct.

The sign only visible for people already on Clements Road and is not visible from approaching Clements Road from Kenneth Road (https://maps.app.goo.gl/cdNvdj65vN91uimo9)

Location where the camera has captured the image: (https://maps.app.goo.gl/YfqJFFg1rKapBoUi7) This is too late as it is not possible to make a safe exit at this point. This is also not a lane where one can move over to the next one.

Again, most appreciative for any assistance. Let me know if you need more details - I am happy to provide more context if that helps.

Date of PCN - 22nd November. So still a few days to respond. Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2024, 10:57:03 pm by hot_chocolate »

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Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #1 on: »
Well, there is an advance warning sign as you suggest, but it isn't all that far in advance at just under 27 metres from the actual bus-gate signs: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xSSTJ3thyAbsUkbV6
But an adjudicator may well consider it to be adequate.

Quote
The sign only visible for people already on Clements Road and is not visible from approaching Clements Road from Kenneth Road
Indeed it isn't but was that your approach ? Searching for Ilford Library there is the Redbridge Library located on the bus-only section so I assume you have to park nearby somewhere.

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #2 on: »
Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up here all sides of the 1st PCN and the front of the 2nd. Only redact yr name & address - leave everything else in.

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #3 on: »
There are appeals won here. This is one from Wednesday this week.

-------------


Case reference   2240478986

Contravention location   Clements Road

The appellant appeared before me today at Chancery Exchange.

The council did not attend the hearing it not being expected to do so.

The contravention alleged in these proceedings was that this vehicle used a route restricted to certain vehicles.

On the evidence before me the restriction was located after a bend in the road.

The appellant submitted that she was unable to avoid the restriction by bearing left as directed by advance warning signage because by doing so it appeared that she would have contravened it as indicated by the legend marked on the carriageway most of which was marked alongside the entrance to that turning. She argued that the restriction and the road layout was misleading.

Although this restriction applied at and from the point at which regulatory signage was posted the legend was marked well in advance of that signage and I agreed with what the appellant said.

The marking of the legend at the spot it was did I find suggest that the motorist would be entering the restricted area by bearing left and I found for that reason that there was an ambiguity as to the ambit of this restriction the contravention for that reason not therefore having been proved.

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you to everyone for their replies, and apologies for not reading the rules carefully. Pleased to hear that there have been appeals won here.

To confirm, yes I came from Kenneth Road.

I have attached the first page of the two PCNs and also the second page of one of them.

If anyone is able to further guide me on how to respond, and whether I should reference the above case, that would be most appreciated. Thank you for your support.



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Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #5 on: »
Hello. Please screenshot all pages AS IF to make a representation online and report back what you see on each page.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #6 on: »
Thank you. Kindly find attached images of all the screenshots. Your help is much appreciated.

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Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #7 on: »
Hi everyone,
Think I only have tomorrow to submit challenge, so if anyone has any suggestions on how to challenge this, would be most grateful! Thanks again.

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #8 on: »
Hi everyone, I realised I have a few more days to challenge the PCNs. I am thinking of appealing as follows. Please advise whether this is suitable. (I tried to search for the case referenced online, but don't know where to look for this or other similar cases) As always, your help is much appreciated. Thanks.




Dear Redbridge Council,

I am writing to formally challenge PCN Nos. AF30090252 and AF30103944 issued on 17th November for the alleged contravention (33j) of using a route restricted to certain vehicles on Clements Road. My challenge is based on the inadequate visibility of advance signage when approaching from Kenneth Road and the procedural unfairness of receiving two PCNs for the same restriction on the same day.


No Advance Signage from Kenneth Road:

I approached Clements Road from Kenneth Road, where there is no advance warning of the restriction. The signage only becomes visible once the motorist is already on Clements Road, at which point it is too late to safely avoid entering the restricted section. This lack of visible advance signage makes it impossible for drivers unfamiliar with the area to take an alternative route in compliance with the restriction.


Issuance of Two PCNs Highlights Inadequate Signage:

I was issued two PCNs for the same restriction on the same day, a few hours apart. This demonstrates that I was unaware of the restriction at the time of the first contravention and had no opportunity to rectify my actions before the second. Had the signage been adequate and visible from Kenneth Road, I would have been able to avoid the restricted route entirely.


Location’s History of Signage Issues:

This location has been found to have a history of inadequate and unclear signage. In Case Reference 2240478986, the Traffic Adjudicator ruled that the restriction and road layout at Clements Road were misleading, resulting in ambiguity for approaching drivers. The adjudicator concluded that the signage did not adequately inform motorists of the restriction, making compliance unreasonably difficult.

The same issues described in that case apply here. The lack of advance warning from Kenneth Road and the sudden transition into the restricted section leave motorists, especially those unfamiliar with the area, with no practical way to comply.

I therefore respectfully request the cancellation of both PCNs on the grounds of inadequate advance signage, the procedural unfairness of issuing two PCNs under these circumstances, and the documented history of unclear signage at this location.

Thank you for considering my representation. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,



Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #9 on: »
I would also add the screenshots and say they fetter discretion and limit to one ground of appeal which flies in the face of the law and the PCN and therefore results in confusion.
I REGRET THAT, FOR THE PRESENT, I AM UNABLE TO TAKE ON ANY MORE CASES AS A REPRESENTATIVE AT THE LONDON TRIBUNALS. THIS IS FOR BOTH PERSONAL AND LEGAL REASONS. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME UNLESS YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR THREAD ON THE FORUM AND I WILL ATTEMPT TO GIVE ADVICE.


If you do not challenge, you join "The Mugged Club".

cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

There are "known knowns" which we may never have wished to know. This applies to them. But in the field the idea that there are also "unknown unknowns" doesn't apply as they hide in the aleatoric lottery. I know this is true and need to be prepared knowing the "unknown unknowns" may well apply.

To Socrates from "Hippocrates"

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you very much Hippocrates for taking a look and for your guidance.

Would you be able to draft something for this final point just to help me clearly articulate the confusion that this results in. Or if you could kindly direct me to the law on this so that I can reference it, that would be greatly helpful.

Again, your time is much appreciated. Thank you.

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #11 on: »
I have updated my appeal to include Hippocrates' advice. Please take a look and let me know if the way I have worded it is correct. Many thanks once more.



Dear Redbridge Council,

I am writing to formally challenge PCN Nos. AF30090252 and AF30103944 issued on 17th November for the alleged contravention (33j) of using a route restricted to certain vehicles on Clements Road. My challenge is based on the inadequate visibility of advance signage when approaching from Kenneth Road and the procedural unfairness of receiving two PCNs for the same restriction on the same day.


No Advance Signage from Kenneth Road:

I approached Clements Road from Kenneth Road, where there is no advance warning of the restriction. The signage only becomes visible once the motorist is already on Clements Road, at which point it is too late to safely avoid entering the restricted section. This lack of visible advance signage makes it impossible for drivers unfamiliar with the area to take an alternative route in compliance with the restriction.


Issuance of Two PCNs Highlights Inadequate Signage:

I was issued two PCNs for the same restriction on the same day, a few hours apart. This demonstrates that I was unaware of the restriction at the time of the first contravention and had no opportunity to rectify my actions before the second. Had the signage been adequate and visible from Kenneth Road, I would have been able to avoid the restricted route entirely.


Location’s History of Signage Issues:

This location has been found to have a history of inadequate and unclear signage. In Case Reference 2240478986, the Traffic Adjudicator ruled that the restriction and road layout at Clements Road were misleading, resulting in ambiguity for approaching drivers. The adjudicator concluded that the signage did not adequately inform motorists of the restriction, making compliance unreasonably difficult.

The same issues described in that case apply here. The lack of advance warning from Kenneth Road and the sudden transition into the restricted section leave motorists, especially those unfamiliar with the area, with no practical way to comply.


Fettering of Discretion in the Appeals Process and Resulting Confusion:

I note that the appeals webpage limits appellants to selecting only one ground of appeal. This fettering of discretion contravenes the principle that decision-makers must consider all relevant circumstances when assessing representations. The limitation forces appellants to select a single reason for their appeal, even in cases where multiple, interconnected grounds exist.

This process creates unnecessary confusion for appellants, particularly for motorists unfamiliar with legal terminology or how different grounds of appeal interrelate. By restricting the ability to present a full and nuanced defense, the appeals process risks causing appellants to omit critical arguments or present an incomplete appeal. Such restrictions undermine the principles of fairness and open representation as required by law, including the Traffic Management Act 2004, which mandates a fair and transparent process.

Given these points, I respectfully request the cancellation of both PCNs on the grounds of:

Inadequate advance signage;
Procedural unfairness of issuing two PCNs under these circumstances;
The documented history of unclear signage at this location;
Legal deficiencies in the appeals process itself, including the fettering of discretion and resulting confusion.
Thank you for considering my representation. I look forward to your response.


Thank you for considering my representation. I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely,

Hi everyone and thanks for all the help thus far.

I've received replies to my two PCN challenges, both of which were rejected. Kindly see attached images for one of the PCNs and the image of the first page of the second, the rest of which are the same. They have replied to each of the points noted in the challenge.

Thank you!

(I've inserted images via imgur but not sure why they are not showing. I have attached in two replies just in case)




























« Last Edit: January 09, 2025, 09:12:26 pm by hot_chocolate »

Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #13 on: »
Images #1

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Re: Redbridge Council, Clements Road, Contravention of 33j
« Reply #14 on: »
Images #2

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