Author Topic: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton  (Read 222 times)

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Torenaga

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Hi again everyone.
My brother got a ticket on south island place red route. Which you are allowed to park in for 1 hour ( link to google street view of location).

https://maps.app.goo.gl/cV97sYBd3BKybnMZ7?g_st=ac

He was parked for just over an hour, I noticed a guy next to the car who stuck the pcn to my brothers car, I asked him why he was not wearing a uniform or at least a high viss jacket. ( He was just wearing a black jumper with a tiny TFL sign on the jumper) He just showed me his badge in his pocket and that was the end of our conversation.

A quick question that i have is, are the pcns in these type of bays meant to have the observation time? As the ones my brother has received in the past also had obeservation from/to on them. As neither the paper pcn nor the online pcn has an observation time on it, would this be a basis on a cancelling of the pcn?

https://flic.kr/p/2pWEcp2

Kind regards


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Torenaga

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2024, 03:37:45 pm »
Has anyone got any ideas please?
I want to send off an appeal today before the discount period runs out.

Kind regards

cp8759

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2024, 02:17:47 pm »
@Torenaga it's not ideal to only post when the discount period is almost up, as that gives you very little time to get any responses. Sending representations half-baked is not ideal either.

The traffic order is The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Lambeth) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 and the relevant entry would appear to be item 164 on page 46, but the wording seems off:

SOUTH ISLAND PLACE, the south side from a point 7 metres east of the extended western building line of No. 1 to 8 Glenshaw Mansions, South Island Place for a distance of 13 metres in an easterly direction

Glenshaw Mansions is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/SEZBziEZP97HsdKe6 and I'm not convinced the bay measurements are right. I think you need to go and get some measurements because any discrepancy is going to be too small to prove with google maps.

First, you need to identify the western boundary of Glenshaw Mansions, which I have drawn here with a red line:



you then need to measure a distance of 7 metres towards Brixton Road, as illustrated by the blue line. You want to take this measurement with a tape measure parallel to the wall of Glenshaw Mansions, where the blue line is drawn. Once you find the point 7 metres from the western wall (the red line), you want to check if this is in line with where the bay starts (if it is, a line from the western end of the bay perpendicular to the wall as drawn in yellow above should match the 7 metre measurement).

If the bay does not start at the 7 metre point, you want to take photo to illustrate this.

You also want to measure the length of the bay, as the bay on Google maps appears to be around 15 metres and the car is parked at the eastern end of the bay, so it may well fall outside of the area designated by the traffic order:



There is also the fact that not all of the bay is on a GLA road, The GLA Side Roads (London Borough of Lambeth) Designation Order 2007 has the following entry at item 2688 on page 32:

SOUTH ISLAND PLACE the south side between its junction with Brixton Road (A23) and a point 7 metres west of the extended common boundary of Nos. 68 Brixton Road and Nos. 1 to 8 Glenshaw Mansions, South Island Place

I'm not quite sure why it's so messed up but that measurement does not include all of the bay, nor does it match the TMO:



To confirm this, I suggest you also measure a point 7 metres west of the extended common boundary of Nos. 68 Brixton Road and Nos. 1 to 8 Glenshaw Mansions, in the image below I have highlighted that boundary in red and the arrow tells you which direction to go in when measuring the 7 metre distance:



Next time you see a TFL CEO, please take a video or photos showing what he's wearing, if their uniform doesn't meet certain requirements that could win the appeal but it's almost impossible to make this argument without photo or video evidence.

I can see you made a representation on the 13th so please show us what you sent.

TFL photos:





« Last Edit: June 16, 2024, 02:19:19 pm by cp8759 »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Torenaga

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2024, 04:58:38 pm »
Thank you for the reply @cp8759 .
I will get everything together and post it up.

I know I should have posted before, It's just that i got side tracked with the other ticket my brother had 🤦‍♂️.

I had a video of the measurements of this same bay from about a year ago.
Will that still be ok? They haven't made any adjustments to the bay in that time.

Also, in regards to the so called pso who gave out the fine, unfortunately I only have a grainy screenshot of him from the video I was trying to record of the conversation I had with him, and what he was wearing as the phone wasn't facing him, when I thought it was. But I will send the screenshot over.

In regards to the appeal, what I did send was just a quick thing just to try and get the fine onto hold, even though the discount period had just run out, so was a bit pointless in the end anyway amd a silly mistake on my part. This is what was sent.

"Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. My vehicle was parked in a designated parking place, so the contravention you allege could not have occurred. Should this matter proceed to the tribunal, I will require TFL to prove that it has complied with The Civil Enforcement Officers (Wearing of Uniforms) (England) Regulations 2007 and section 76(3) of the Traffic Management Act 2004.

Also there is no observation time on the pcn,
No from/until, may i ask if you could provide the observation time too for this pcn?
Also, the person who issued the pcn was not in full uniform.

Kind regards"

I know it's not great as I don't have a clue if a pcn of this type requires an observation time on it anyway. But like i said, was just a quick thing just to get it on hold.

Kind regards

cp8759

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2024, 07:19:44 pm »
As far as I recall the video was not very helpful as the measurements were taken alone the edge of the bay, rather than along the wall of the building.

We really need to prove the length of that blue line I've highlighted above, as well as the length of the bay.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Torenaga

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2024, 09:24:12 pm »
Ok @cp8759
I will try to get a video for you tomorrow or friday latest

Kind regards

Torenaga

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2024, 03:56:34 pm »
@cp8759
Apologies for the delay, it's been a headache to get the measurements, I have taken some, please let me know if these are adequate, if not i will do them again.

Kind regards

https://flic.kr/p/2q1dQJX
This is were 7 metres reaches from the border of 68 brixton road.

https://flic.kr/p/2q1dQ7K
This measurement came up at 14.60 metres, so not far off from the google satellite view.

https://flic.kr/p/2q17UEo
And the measurement here was 6.60 metres up to the pole from the border wall of glashaw mansions.

cp8759

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2024, 04:37:33 pm »
https://flic.kr/p/2q1dQ7K
This measurement came up at 14.60 metres, so not far off from the google satellite view.

https://flic.kr/p/2q17UEo
And the measurement here was 6.60 metres up to the pole from the border wall of glashaw mansions.
These are the measurements we need for the purposes of this appeal, but you need to film a video to prove these measurements. You can't expect an adjudicator to just take your word for it.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Torenaga

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Re: Red route stopped where prohibited south island place brixton
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2024, 06:02:39 pm »
No, of course.
I understand.
Will film the measurements on Monday now.

Kind regards