Author Topic: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ  (Read 1545 times)

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Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
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Hi there,
Was wondering if I could get some help please.
I received 2 PCN in 10mins at Stratford E154QB Morefields eye hospital.
I had an appointment and was running late and my wife how is pregnant had an appointment in royal London Hospital in tower hamlets both appointments within 1 hour I went to the appointment leaving my wife in the back seat of the car and the CEO came and issued the PCN, my wife got out and told the CEO that my husband went for and appointment and will be back in few minutes he then took the PCN off the windscreen and gave it to my wife.
Then within 10 minutes another CEO came and issued another one and my wife explained the situation and the CEO told her that the first PCN will be cancelled. When I can back yo my car my wife told me what happened and I called the council they told me they will cancel the first PCN I explained the situation they said to appeal. I check on the council website and can see both PCN I open.

I have attached the PCN and photos on the website.

Please advise how I can deal with this issue.

Thank you

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Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #1 on: »
The second one will be cancelled ( but at what stage i cannot say) as a continuous contravention, but i would like to see all the council photos and some up to date ones to see what sign they rely on

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #2 on: »
At the top of the Forum there's a prominent Read Me First post.

It says amongst other things:

"Leave in the PCN number and vehicle numberplate (VRM). The ONLY things you should obscure are your name and address where they appear, NOTHING ELSE. We may need ALL sides of ALL pages but it is OK to start a case with just the front of the PCN."

Please correct and repost your PCN images.

Were you parked in the little road/cul-de-sac that runs between the Stratford Town Hall and the pub? GSV here.

If so this cul-de-sac provides access to the gate at the rear of the Town Hall used for the car park. I'm not sure that this is a pedestrian only area, there appears to be a parking sign on the pub side and bays indicated by a change in the brickwork. GSV only show the back (pavement side) of the sign for some reason. It used to be a Loading Only bay, so likely still is. Wrong contravention if we can get that confirmed.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 06:06:42 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #3 on: »
The PCN numbers and number plate are visible on the payment slips at the bottom of the PCNs, so I've had a look at the council photos:

PN36945112:







PN36967421:







The obvious problem here is that the sign does not convey any waiting restriction, and really the council should have issued a moving traffic PCN.

Here's a draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Newham,

I challenge liability for PCNs PN36967421 and PN36945112 on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur, and that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. Firstly the sign relied upon by the CEO does not indicate any waiting prohibitions, so it is not at all clear that there are any parking restrictions in force at all. It seems to me that maybe the council should have issued a PCN under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 for code 53 - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone, but it's obviously too late for that now.

In any event the sign at the entrance to the zone says "except for access", and I did not use this road as a through route, on the contrary I needed access to park within the zone. I note there are parking bays within the zone and in order to access those bays, it is necessary to enter the zone. In the event the bays were not of a type that I was permitted to park in, but in the absence of any other parking restrictions I parked as I did because I needed to attend an appointment at the Moorfields eye hospital. Having lawfully entered the zone in order to access parking bays, there was no signage indicating that I could not park as I did.

My wife remained in the car and during this time two CEOs approached and each issued a PCN, this meaning that for this one parking incident I am now faced with £260 worth of penalty charges, discounted to £130 if paid within 14 days. Quite plainly this is a demand that exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as a result of which the statutory ground of appeal at regulation 5(4)(e) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 is made out.

It follows that both penalties must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

You must submit this on the council website https://parking.newham.gov.uk/pages/home.aspx against both PCNs, and keep screenshots of the confirmation pages.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #4 on: »
The discount window expires tomorrow Tuesday the 31st October. So make sure you get your informal representation (challenge) submitted before close of business tomorrow. The Council will re-offer the discount for a further 14 days if or when they reject. Do this online so it's delivered the same day. Please see here.

You should get emailed acknowledgements so keep them safe. Check your spam folder.

One representation for each PCN and cross reference the other PCN on each representation.

Are you able to get a picture of the sign in the parking bay? It's somewhere behind where your car was parked.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 01:23:23 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #5 on: »
Thank you for the draft, I submitted it like you said and I will go by to take a photo of the sign
And post it hear

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #6 on: »
Hi all,

Please see photos attached of the signs
Thanks

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Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #7 on: »
Your 3rd photo shows a "No Through Road" sign.
Your 1st photo shows a time limited parking bay sign.
Your 2nd photo shows a time limited loading bay sign.

So access is required for the parking and loading bays and in any event this road also provides 24x7 access to and from the car park at the rear of the Old Town Hall.

The Council evidence photos show a "Flying Motorcycle" sign, but that's well in front of your car, you haven't reached it yet.

It seems that you parked outside the parking bay boundaries, so I would say you're guilty of a pavement parking infringement. But that's not the allegation on the PCNs. So the contravention(s) did not occur, you hadn't passed any signs indicating a pedestrian only zone.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 07:10:51 pm by Enceladus »

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #8 on: »
Ok thanks
Will Wait for the reply and update on hear

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #10 on: »
Hello there,
I have received a reply from the council ti both the representation and the notice to owner.
Please see attached.
Any help as to how I can appeal this please.
Thank you

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Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #11 on: »
The notice to owner is attached
Thanks

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #12 on: »
You can't appeal yet, you can only make a representation to the council asking them to cancel the penalty. If that is rejected, you can then appeal to the tribunal.

Do you have an appointment letter from the hospital or anything to confirm the nature of the appointment? We could make a representation without it, but it would strengthen your case as I think we could cause a failure to consider, which would give you a ground to appeal in its own right.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #13 on: »
Yes I have confirmation of appointment
The notice does not the discount it ask for full payment.

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Re: Received 2 PNC in 10 mins in West Ham lane - Stratford E15 4BQ
« Reply #14 on: »
12th Dec 2023 = Date of rejection of informal representations
10th Jan 2024 = Wed = Date of issue and date of posting of Notice to Owner
12th Jan 2024 = Fri = Deemed date of services of NtO and day 1 of 28 period
8th Feb 2024 = Thu = day 28 of 28 day period to pay of submit a formal representation

You're up against it timewise. You must get representations delivered to the Council by close of business this Thursday coming. Any reason for the long delays in posting up these docs on the forum?

You've let the discount option expire so you might as well submit formal reps and appeal to the independent adjudicator as you have no financial incentive to do otherwise. There is an outside chance that Newham will re-offer the discount if you submit formal reps.

Please post up a draft of your proposed formal representation.