Author Topic: Royal Greenwich PCN - Halstow Rd SE10 / Humber Rd SE10 Contravention  (Read 58 times)

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Hi Guys,

I received this PCN for Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle
(motor vehicles). I did not see the contravention sign with the restricted times.

It was dark, I am new to driving in this area. I could not see it from the side i was driving from as the sign is only on one side and there was no previous warning of this when approaching to turn into the road.

Based on this, is there a chance I can appeal this PCN or should i just pay PCN at the discounted rate?



Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/f7scyHratgTtj3bi9

Many Thanks!







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You have yet to post the PCN. Please do not redact PCN Number and car reg, because we use these to view the online video.
GSV is way out-of-date, (August 2020),  so we need to know if there is an advance warning sign for a left turn approach. If there isn't you look to have a fairly strong case, but only at London Tribunals because Greenwich, (wanting your money !!), will just refuse any reps you submit to them.

The photos you have posted show the single sign would be side-on to a left turn approach. Don't think for a moment that the council have any brains or intelligence; they haven't but are very good at stonewalling and sending out Fob-Off letters. Going to London Tribunals means you have to risk the full PCN penalty. Nothing to pay if you win, of course, and the full penalty if you lose, but that is all, there are no additional costs. And Greenwich may fold and concede just before the adjudication hearing. It's a favourite trick of London councils.

Were you using satnav to drive there ?

Main point we need is the signage - is there an advance warning sign

Hi,

Sorry I forgot to attach the PCN previously.

I was following the sat nav as the area was all new to me. I have gone back to the area to check for any previous warnings and i only found one in the middle of a junction before approaching the left turn.

It looks like the council were trialing these restrictions as on their website it says THIS: "The 18-month trial, which is designed to improve air quality and road safety, began on Wednesday 27 November.

New road signs explaining the part-time weekday camera-enforced (7am to 10am and 3pm to 7pm) restrictions are being installed. We’ve been listening to what communities have told us over the last week, and to ensure we’re as clear as possible, we will be reviewing, changing or removing certain signs which have caused some confusion.

We will be extending the grace period to 2 January 2025 while we make these changes."








OK, so there is an advance sign, and of the type we like to see, but its placement is by no means good at all, being on the offside of the approach. Appeals at London Tribunals have been won on such a thing, but it's by no means a slam-dunk win, as a lot does depend on the adjudicator you get 'on the day', (which it shouldn't, of course, but we deal in reality here).

I have to say that using satnav to drive round minor streets in London is just asking for trouble nowadays, but submit reps as I outlined anyway, and don't mention satnav ! There may also be a 'technical' appeal based on council mismanagement of the enforcement process, so wait a bit for a response on that, but don't miss the deadlines on the PCN.

Is this draft okay to send:

I make formal representations against Penalty Charge Notice GR24576209 on the following grounds.

- Signage

1. The council’s video evidence does not support the alleged contravention. It is not possible for a motorist to clearly read or assimilate the content of the restriction signage in real time, particularly for a vehicle turning left into Halstow Road from Humber Road. The positioning of the signage means it is not reasonably visible to drivers making this manoeuvre.

2. The advance warning sign is positioned on the offside of the approach, adjacent to a junction, and at a height that renders it ineffective for drivers concentrating on safely executing a left turn. As a result, the sign is easily missed and does not provide adequate advance warning of the restriction.

3. I note that both the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) and the Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3, provide specific guidance regarding the placement, height, and visibility of signs so that restrictions are clearly conveyed to all road users. I therefore put the council to strict proof that the signage at this location complies fully with TSRGD requirements and the guidance contained within the Traffic Signs Manual.

4. Furthermore, upon turning into Halstow Road, the restriction signage is only positioned on one side of the carriageway, leaving drivers with no reasonable opportunity to observe the restriction or take avoiding action before it is too late. This failure to adequately sign the restriction means that it is not properly conveyed and the alleged contravention did not occur.

- The PCN

I make this collateral challenge against its validity:

The PCN is missing mandatory information as provided at Para. 4 (8 ) (v) of

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted

(v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;

Clearly, this refers to Para. 4 (8 ) (iii):

(iii)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

Therefore, it follows that the statement: "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £140 may be payable." adds to the lack of clarity by its omission. Even on its own, whether the required information was included or not, it is also arguable that it conflates the two periods by the use of the word "or" which many would view as being conjunctive.

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.