3. Reading Bus lane PCN
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Reading Bus lane PCN
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Apologies  did a double post and cleared the wrong one!!

Starting again

Daughter in law had a letter from Reading about the infraction

Date of Detection 15/09/2023
Date of notice 29/09/2023
Delivered 30/09/2023

ISTR that in the past there was a procedural impropriety challenge upheld where a  council added telephone charges

The reverse states that calls to the 0343 number are charged at up to 9p per minute from a landline if you pay by credit debit card ( it also mentions the it is free
is included in free call packages)
The picture shoes her with the nearside wheels over the line the offside are just outside it!
I said that it looked like she has been caught BUT there may be a legal loophole we could use



I have told her to expect to be 70.00 lighter though

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 09:34:48 am by bobthesod »
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #1 on: »
You wrote in the original post: "What do i need to redact from the PCN?"


Answere: Just the name and address - leave everything else in. Also post a GSV link to the location.
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #2 on: »
They're still using wording re statutory times that infers you have to pay on one day and is not clear that the periods start with the date of service.
Which has been poo pooed by adjudicators in the past but not sure that any appellant has understood it properly.
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #3 on: »
Video:



There is the will / may flaw in the PCN, but it's more favoured by some adjudicators than others. The 0343 number is irrelevant as the service charge is zero, i.e. no money goes to the council (on the contrary the council probably gets charged every time you call).

Sorry if these are obvious questions but we have to ask: what route did she take, and why did she enter the bus lane?

In the meantime I'll try and find out the make and model of the CCTV camera.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 11:23:16 am by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #4 on: »
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: bobthesod on October 01, 2023, 01:19:58 pm
Cp

I will find out if she was planning to turn left. However it looks like she entered to lane at its commencement, so i doubt that there is any wriggle room there

Dancing Dad

The notice does specify that the date of service is is 2 working dates after the date of notice. Making it the 3 Oct

It also states that the penalty charge  can be reduced if paid within 21 days form the date of notice

Now this is what confuses me. When i was doing OU Maths 101 (passed!!) it was impressed that mathematically, between 1 and 10 does not include 1 and 10
Using that it could also be argued that in football a goal is only scored when a ball passes between  ( in the space within ) the goal posts, as hitting a post is not a goal.
Using these two analogies could it be argued that the phrase within 21 days is ambiguous as it does not specify whether the charge should be paid before the 21st ( that is the other goal post) , making the 20th day the last valid day to pay, or it does include the 21st day which it doesn’t specify possible by doing that you would be outwith the timescale laid down

Perhaps i am being a bit of a grammatical pedant here,Albert Haddock style, but would welcome thoughts

It is not the date of service but the wording on timings.
You must make payment or challenge 28 days from the date of service.
Not by the 28th day but literal is on the 28th day ie on one specific day
And that date is late as 28 days from date of service is day 29.
Similar with discount period within 21 days of date of service
And another within and from in the bold, black paragraph at the end of page 1.
Both within and from means that you start counting on the day after the date of service, adding a day.
Statute is clear, count starts with date of service.

HC judgements have made it clear that terms like within are not 100% wins and it depends on context but statute has set deadlines and the process is driven by those deadlines, they must be clear and not ambiguous.
Reading has bugged me with this for years but seem to get away with it, adjudicators using terms like substantially compliant and when read as a whole.
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #6 on: »
DD

I am tempted to go with this and baffle them with bullshit  lol

Would i be correct in saying that if it goes to Tribunal and it gets refused it is just the 70.00 payable. I might make her an offer that i will pay the extra 35.00  if we lose so she is not out of pocket

Having had another read of this,  whilst i am not a professor of English, i would say that the black box clarifies that even though the initial info above it could be read as it be must  commenced on the 28th day, the box does say  about the penalty imposed should you not pay within the 21 day period and refers to Reps, that any received outwith the 28 days will be disregarded. which i would take that i can di this anytime inside the 28days

Get rid of the black box and it is worth a punt, with the black box i feel i would be standing on jelly as if i were an adjudicator i would rely heavily on that bit to refuse

« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 02:37:43 pm by bobthesod »
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: bobthesod on October 01, 2023, 02:23:36 pm
.........
Get rid of the black box and it is worth a punt, with the black box i feel i would be standing on jelly as if i were an adjudicator i would rely heavily on that bit to refuse
Read the black box again and tell us the last date you can make payment or challenge?
Date please...based on Date of Notice of 29th Sept and the information on the PCN.
To quote maths 101, show your workings.
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #8 on: »
DD

Had several goes at this and still come up 30/10  ( unless the council uses the DOS as day 1)
As date of presumed service being the second working day  being 02/10 this is day 0
Day 1 beginning at 00.00 3/10   and day 28  ending at 23.59 on 30/10
The first para reads that you must pay on day 28  being 30/10
The reduced payment can be made within 21 days from date of service  give that as being offered up to close of business on 23/10  ( which could be 22/10 )
The out of time for  reps is being received after day 28 ......31/10 onwards
Now the blocked box gives a cut off date of within 28 days from date of service ..again being close of business on 30/10  so that clarifies the out of time date
You mention statute. Is this worded as per POFA where the word MUST is noted ( in  the ppc MUST invite the Reg keeper etc....) as being procedural impropriety?
. The only additional analogy for the first para i can see to give the adjudicator is the taking of pills where you must take them at 18.00  next day...  not before..not after... but at  however  i would be wary of them thinking i might be extracting it somewhat, and tell me to jog on
Based on that i wouldn’t feel too confident of taking it forward
 I have seen Hippocrates sticky on pepipoo about successful cases.. what would be the best heading to look for that might enable us to give Reading a bloody nose


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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #9 on: »
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: bobthesod on October 02, 2023, 10:23:31 am
DD

Had several goes at this and still come up 30/10  ( unless the council uses the DOS as day 1)
..............

Yup...thought that is what you may have come up with..... the phrase in brackets is the key.
Sorry to spoonfeed on this but if you don't understand you will not be able to argue it.
You have actually got the right date but by using the wrong date of service.... should be 3rd Oct.... second working day... posted on Friday, presumed DOS is the following Tuesday.

This is the legislation
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
Note 3(d)
"(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served,"

This applies to all PCNs under TMA2004, the key bit is "beginning with the date of service"
Applies to not only the 28 days but the discount period.
Where on the Reading PCN is that phrase?

DOS is always day one.
But using terms such as an unqualified within or from implies that you start counting from the day after the DOS.....
« Last Edit: October 02, 2023, 12:40:54 pm by DancingDad »
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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: bobthesod on October 01, 2023, 02:23:36 pm
Would i be correct in saying that if it goes to Tribunal and it gets refused it is just the 70.00 payable.
Yes that is correct. I don't like Reading Council much so if you're going to the tribunal in any event, I'm happy to represent her.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #12 on: »
DD and CP  thanks for the gentle push. will have a word with her  and explain  that it is to do with the phrase which does not include ( by law) the word must..and that i got ( with the aide of pepipoo) a Britannia  parking charge cancelled on the same missing  wording  mandated in POFA 2012.


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Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #13 on: »
If she is going to challenge it let us know and we'll draft a representation for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Reading Bus lane PCN
« Reply #14 on: »
John CP and DD

Thanks for all the pointers and offer of assistance.
I shall be seeing her the weekend and will make her an offer,
That we take it to adjudication and if we lose i will pay the additional 35 that she would have had to pay.. and she would not  be out of pocket
My son is all for a quiet life, but if there is a 870/30? chance of  getting a result i am all for it

It looks like the decision rests on the adjudicators view of when day 1 starts?

will get back Sunday if that is ok
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