Author Topic: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane  (Read 493 times)

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Hi

I received a PCN last week for parking in a resident's only space, the road has 2 hour parking spaces and I was unaware that it changed midway along the set of spaces.

GSV: https://maps.app.goo.gl/BntAzfpydWjAvG9m6

Pictures/PCN: https://imgur.com/a/EEEWTJz

I had submitted an informal challenge which was rejected, that's the second letter at the end of the album.

My defence was that it wasn't obvious that the rules changed at that point, less than a car's length away from my spot. The sign closest to my car stating it was permit only had the blue P and permit type painted over so quite frankly I just didn't notice it, and I'm used to signs in these scenarios having arrows along the bottom to clearly depict the difference in where they apply. The fact that in the PCN evidence they attached a photo of a different sign (pic 7) further away makes me think they knew this one isn't up to scratch, but I'm not clued up enough on the actual regulations to make a call on that.

The other point is that when I arrived (first picture in the album) there was a car parked over the (very faint) markings that showed the change in restrictions on the ground, making it less obvious that the other rules didn't apply to the whole row of spaces.

Do I have a leg to stand on here/is it worth making a formal challenge? TIA.

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Never seen that before - I'd say it needs a proper parking sign at the divider for permit holders. That little flap looks deficient and daft.


Never seen that before - I'd say it needs a proper parking sign at the divider for permit holders. That little flap looks deficient and daft.

I've been reading Schedule 4 and 5 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 to try and see how the signage stacks up, and I think I might be able to argue something in the layout of that sign as well as the missing blue P. Not completely sure of my interpretation and understanding of it though so thought to get some other opinions first

The boundary between the two bays is incorrectly marked. It should consist of double lines perpendicular to the kerb. This is because in TSRGD a bay is defined in Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6 (Diagram 1028.4). So two bays with seperate restrictions, must have their own boundary, thus making a double perpendicular line mandatory.  Here, it is only a single line.


The boundary between the two bays is incorrectly marked. It should consist of double lines perpendicular to the kerb. This is because in TSRGD a bay is defined in Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6 (Diagram 1028.4). So two bays with seperate restrictions, must have their own boundary, thus making a double perpendicular line mandatory.  Here, it is only a single line.

Thanks, I didn't know that. Just to confirm a few things - is TSRGD something that must be followed or simply guidance - i.e. if the signage and markings are improper is that enough to invalidate the PCN? And are my arguments regarding the signage valid? I suppose they would say that there was another, but the photos do show that it wasn't the closest to my car.

Would therefore plan to appeal with the following:

1. Boundary not marked, should be double line - TSRGD Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6
2. Signage inadequate, missing symbol - TSRGD Schedule 4 Part 2 Paragraph 10 Sub-Paragraph 1; TSRGD Schedule 4 Part 4 Item 2

I was going to draft a representation but just realised that I can't submit a rep until a NtO turns up - I assume it's intentional that I can't do it during the reduced penalty period, forcing me to take a gamble.

In which case - while I understand no one has a crystal ball - does it seem like I have a good chance at a successful appeal?

Quote
I was going to draft a representation but just realised that I can't submit a rep until a NtO turns up - I assume it's intentional that I can't do it during the reduced penalty period, forcing me to take a gamble.
No, you can submit an informal challenge at any time within the 28 days of the PCN payment period, indeed if you submit reps within the 14 day discount period, most councils re-offer the discount when rejecting those reps. These must be considered by the council. However, at Notice to Owner stage, things firm up, because under the law the owner is responsible for payment or representations and also for appealing to the adjudicators. Of course you don't have to do anything at all, and can just wait for the NtO, assuming you are the owner.

No, you can submit an informal challenge at any time within the 28 days of the PCN payment period, indeed if you submit reps within the 14 day discount period, most councils re-offer the discount when rejecting those reps. These must be considered by the council. However, at Notice to Owner stage, things firm up, because under the law the owner is responsible for payment or representations and also for appealing to the adjudicators. Of course you don't have to do anything at all, and can just wait for the NtO, assuming you are the owner.

I submitted an informal challenge the day after which was rejected, received the letter yesterday. As far as I can see there is no option to make a rep/formal challenge without waiting for the NtO?. They haven't explicitly said it but on a past post here I saw they did re-offer the discount after the rep so there may be hope. To confirm, I am the owner of the car.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 01:02:31 am by gt3 »

Ah, right. So the next stage if you don't take up their offer of the discount is to wait for the NtO and submit formal reps. There is no legal obligation on them to re-offer the discount when rejecting formal reps, but a lot do, because if they don't, it's then a total no-brainer for the appellant to take them to adjudication as the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs.
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The NtO has arrived and I plan to submitting a rep. This is what I've drafted up so far, could I please have some second opinions if it's ok or any changes I should make?


Dear Reading Borough Council,

The contravention did not occur as the signs and lines were wrong, and not in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016.

Firstly, the boundary between the two bays with differing restrictions is incorrectly marked: the bays must have their own boundary and therefore a double perpendicular line from the kerb is required to define two separate bays as specified in TSRGD Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6. In the pictures there is only a single faint perpendicular line on the boundary, and at the time of arrival a car was parked over it.

Furthermore the signage is inadequate in designating the separate parking restrictions. As defined in TSRGD Schedule 4 Part 2 Paragraph 10 Sub-Paragraph 1 in reference to Schedule 4 Part 4 Item 2, a blue ‘P’ symbol must be present on the sign for the ‘Permit holders only’ parking restriction, which was not the case at the boundary of the restrictions. At less than a car length away from my car, this was the closest signage to my parking location.

I therefore request the cancellation of the PCN.

Regards,

bump - any advice please?

bump - any advice please?
Your proposed reps looks OK to me, so ram it up them !
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PCN *******

On *** I parked my car as seen in the council's photos. I noticed and consulted the traffic sign immediately ahead of my car which, as regards the time at which I parked, conveyed that I was parked in a shared use bay. As I was not a 10R permit holder, I was restricted to a maximum of 2 hours' free parking. I returned to my car at ***, well before my permitted parking time had elapsed.

I found the PCN which alleged that at 16.41 I was parked in a 'Permit space'. I checked the sign again which confirmed that I was not so parked, in fact the free parking period extended until 8pm. At this time I also noticed that hanging on the column was a plaque which, as the photos show, comprises only three words, namely 'Permit Holders Only'. The council's response to my informal challenge states that this is a traffic sign which has been placed at the point where a restriction changes and is the basis upon which the council's claim rests.

It is a false basis and the PCN must be cancelled.

The Traffic Signs etc. Regulations state clearly the component parts of a single sign and the plaque fails to meet the most fundamental of these:

10.—(1) The sign must have a symbol of the size, colour and type shown in column 3 of the sign table in Part 4 for the description in question.
(my emphasis)

None the required symbols is included because the plaque contains only words whereas what is specified in this case is the letter 'P' on a blue background.

In addition, none of the other matters recommended in the Traffic Signs Manual has been adopted by the council- which they would have to explain to an adjudicator- for example arrows pointing in the directions in which the alternative restrictions apply.

As the words 'Permit Holders Only' without the required symbol do not constitute an approved traffic sign then any restriction contingent upon this being a specified sign cannot stand as the council would not have met their obligation under regulation 18 of 'The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996'.

I would also add that the contravention description used in the PCN is invalid. This states:

Parked in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

However, as the authority know(because it's stated on the council's website - https://www.reading.gov.uk/vehicles-roads-and-transport/parking-permits/digital-parking-permits/ ) -

From 1 November [2024] if you already hold a valid paper resident permit, you will no longer need to display this in your vehicle.

It therefore follows that as parking in a permit space or zone without displaying a valid permit is no longer a requirement then non-display cannot be grounds for a penalty charge.

Some thoughts

Amazing, thank you.

I noticed you didn't mention the bay marking, is this because the signage defence is strong enough alone or is it not a valid point?

Not all that surprising, NoR has turned up. I will be taking it to the tribunal, what should I know before going for it? Tips/advice much appreciated.

https://imgur.com/a/ORvix09

Not all that surprising, NoR has turned up. I will be taking it to the tribunal, what should I know before going for it? Tips/advice much appreciated.

https://imgur.com/a/ORvix09
So with no re-offer of the discount, it is now a total no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.