Author Topic: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings  (Read 583 times)

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Dear Forum Members,

I recently received a parking fine after parking on the past Sunday outside a school, where the markings clearly state "No Stopping Mon-Fri, 8am-4pm." I ensured I did not park in the restricted white residential boxes but in the yellow school zone outside the restricted hours. Despite this, the ticket states: "Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours." I have photos showing the signage, markings, and my parking location.

Could you kindly advise:

1- Is the ticket enforceable given the restriction applies only on the white residential boxes and not on school yellow markings  Mon-Fri, and I parked on a Sunday?
2- How should I present my evidence to emphasise the signage contradicts the alleged violation, i.e. clear separation between the school zone and the residential parking areas in my argument?
3- Are there any precedents for successfully challenging similar penalties?


I would greatly appreciate your guidance on this matter and any other advice you may offer.

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Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #1 on: »
There are double yellow lines there too but appeals have been won on confusion about mixed markings.

Post the PCN with no redactions.


Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you for your reply. Yep this is it:-) Do you mean to post here using the link? Or post the appeal?

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #3 on: »
OP, I understand stamfordman's point, but I don't think this applies in your case.

DYL may not be accompanied by traffic signs, the examples about mixed markings and their mixed messages apply, if I remember correctly, to single yellow lines which convey a waiting restriction [when used in conjunction with No Stopping markings] within a Controlled Parking Zone.

Whether there should be DYL - as in is there a traffic order to this effect- I don't know.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2024, 04:46:29 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you for all your insights,

here is the PCN

https://pcn.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/TicketDetails.aspx

Pls advise if it's worth a challenge. I looked for TRO online but none is available. I imagine FoI is required but that would leave me out of time so would you agree with me to challenge, asking for TRO.

Thanks

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #5 on: »
What are PCN number and car VRM...

It's a controlled zone. Yes the guidance says a single yellow should be reinforced with a waiting time plate.

But there is an issue with people not realising there is a single or double yellow given the zig-zags are also yellow and not knowing that zig-zags don't have a kerbside line.   

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #6 on: »
I don't think there is any bar to having school zigzags by double-yellow lines, but clearly, because DYLs don't need any sign, there is scope for confusion. The school markings are No Stopping whereas DYLs on their own would allow boarding and alighting.

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #7 on: »
Could you pls advise on what grounds can I base my challenge? Thank you

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #8 on: »
What are PCN number and car VRM...


PCN GR15600889

VRM KW20WNP

Apologies just realised the QR Code doesn't work on the link

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #9 on: »
The yellow lines are a bit degraded. About 10 years ago they changed from a single to double yellow.

They did lose a tribunal case when there was a single yellow where the adjudicator said it wasn't reasonable to know the zig-zags don't have a kerb line especially as there was no timeplate.



Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #10 on: »
The yellow lines are a bit degraded. About 10 years ago they changed from a single to double yellow.

They did lose a tribunal case when there was a single yellow where the adjudicator said it wasn't reasonable to know the zig-zags don't have a kerb line especially as there was no timeplate.

[img width=808.9930419921875 height=825]https://i.ibb.co/5GnLzGF/r2.jpg[/img]
[img width=808.9930419921875 height=825]https://i.ibb.co/89Qdcr7/r1.jpg[/img]
Well, I suppose that argument could prevail again, why not ? Of course the OP would end up at London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play so it would be something of a risk.
However, no harm in submitting reps on the basis that the presence of two restrictions is not made clear enough, and see what tosh they reply with.

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #11 on: »
Thank you.

I would be grateful if you could check this wording:

Dear Royal Borough of Greenwich Parking Services,

I am writing to formally challenge PCN [Insert PCN Number], issued on [Date], for the alleged contravention of "Parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours." I believe this fine was issued in error, and I would like to present the following points in my defence:

1. Parking Location and Time
On the date in question, I parked outside a school with clear signage stating "No Stopping Mon-Fri, 8am-5pm." I ensured to park on a Sunday, outside the restricted hours. Additionally, I parked outside the residential parking bays and within the yellow school zone, assuming the restriction only applied during the specified weekday hours, and white residential marking.

2. Confusion Due to Mixed Markings
The area contains yellow lines ( not sure are these double or single) alongside school zig-zag markings, and white residential bays. The school markings and the Board clearly indicate a time-limited stopping restriction. I took the marking to allow parking outside restricted time. However, now it seems there is an overlap in signage and markings that create confusion about when parking is permitted, especially outside school hours.

Conclusion
Based on the unclear and overlapping markings and signage, I respectfully request the cancellation of this PCN. I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Thank you!

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #12 on: »
Looks OK, but they will reject it as they do all informal challenges, so don't get too upset. Appeals have been won on the basis of lack of clarity in this situation which is found all over London at schools where there is also a parking restriction.

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #13 on: »
OP, just re-read what you've written pl and what, IMO, is the only inference which can be drawn.

The 'mixed messages' appeals have as far as I'm aware only applied to SYL AND where no additional traffic signs were present NB. even within a CPZ an authority may place repeater signs reminding motorists of the restriction.

The law as regards CPZ:
“controlled parking zone”
 either—
(a)
an area—

(i)
in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings...... whether or not an upright sign to indicate the same prohibition is placed in conjunction with the line or kerb marking;


And as regards traffic signs:

Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;


(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force


From a legal perspective IMO your problem is:
A traffic sign MAY NOT be placed to mark DYL (notice that the definition above refers to '..or the line' in the singular).

An authority may not erect a sign to the effect..'look out, double yellow lines about'.

And your reps as drafted seem to acknowledge seeing the lines, both SYL and DYL, whereas most, if not all, successful appeals are predicated upon not seeing the line which, when compounded by the absence of an upright sign, left the motorist unaware.

So where will you stand in your reps:

Did see lines, but thought they were SYL (I don't think we've yet discovered whether when you parked is actually covered by the CPZ anyway!);

Saw both types and was confused by this;

Didn't see any and focused solely on the No Stopping prohibition;

Or.....?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2024, 11:12:56 am by H C Andersen »

Re: RB Greenwich, Roper St, Code 01, Sunday parked on school markings
« Reply #14 on: »
I would just say you were puzzled to get the PCN as you parked on no stopping zig-zags not in force at that time and you can't see why the contravention stated on the PCN occurred.

It's not a 'formal challenge' - it's an informal one.