3. Proof of observed times.
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Proof of observed times.
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I have received a PCN for a Code:30 offence of being parked for longer than permitted. My belief is that the CEO has made an error on the time when my vehicle was first observed.

I have no proof to verify the time I parked and the Council have confirmed that there is no CCTV coverage of the street. they have also confirmed that there are no photographs of my vehicle at the alleged time it was first observed.

The CEO took multiple photographs of my vehicle at the time of issuing the PCN, but none at the time it was first 'observed'.

I have challenged this PCN under procedural impropriety and would be grateful for any feedback.

Do I have to accept that the observed times by the CEO is taken as 'gospel' and it's a case of my word versus theirs, or is their a case to challenge it?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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This relates to a free parking zone, for two hours no return permitted within an hour.
I accidentally (website not that clear) submitted a challenge on the grounds of procedural impropriety without having submitted my reasons. I had been trying to find photographic evidence first. 
This wasn’t available, so I telephoned the council who then emailed me multiple photos of my vehicle, all date and time stamped when the PCN was issued.
I emailed back asking for proof of the time my vehicle was first observed and if CCTV footage was available to support this.
The emailed reply was and I quote accurately: “CEO can only recorded vehicle that are in situate at the time in the location.  I am unaware if CCTV is in operation at this location. Your appeal has bee received and will be dealt with on due course”
My belief is that the CEO has made an error on the first observed time. Sadly, I have no supporting evidence or witnesses to prove this.
Many thanks.

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Re: Proof of observed times.
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Hopefully my photo of the pcn will be attached.

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My belief is that the CEO has made an error on the first observed time. Sadly, I have no supporting evidence or witnesses to prove this.

Then on what basis do you hold this belief?

The restricted times begin at 8am, it therefore seems perfectly plausible that a CEO would begin to check cars at this time, in your case 8.04.

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Re: Proof of observed times.
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The CEO's notes are sufficient to enforce a contravention.

They sometimes take pics of wheel valve positions to show the vehicle hasn't moved - are there any in the pics?
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I agree that it is entirely plausible that a CEO would begin to check cars at the given observed time. I don't agree that my vehicle was parked there then though, I would guess it was parked just before 9am, but can't prove this. I didn't actually check as I knew I'd definitely be parked there for less than two hours. 

Hence my initial question; "Do I have to accept that the observed times by the CEO is taken as 'gospel' and it's a case of my word versus theirs, or is their a case to challenge it?"

As the CEO took no photographs when they first observed my vehicle, I am assuming that they made a note of my vehicle registration, which presumably is now recorded digitally.

BANES have form for procedural impropriety and I have in the past successfully challenged, at adjudication level, three Bus Lane and one parking PCN's. In the earlier days of PePiPoo I helped several people to successfully challenge the same incorrectly signed Bus Lanes.

My initial thoughts are that without supporting evidence on when I first parked, I have no case, but on the basis of 'if you don't ask' I'm here now.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2025, 05:14:40 pm by LT »
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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Quote from: stamfordman on July 29, 2025, 05:04:16 pm
The CEO's notes are sufficient to enforce a contravention.

They sometimes take pics of wheel valve positions to show the vehicle hasn't moved - are there any in the pics?

Thank you for your reply.

All the photos, including several of just the wheels are time stamped at 10:44 and 10:45. Which seems odd, as why take wheel position photographs if you didn't take any prior photographs.

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Re: Proof of observed times.
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They sometimes record valve positions in notes.
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Quote from: stamfordman on July 29, 2025, 05:14:08 pm
They sometimes record valve positions in notes.

Would they not take a photograph to do that?
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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Quote from: LT on July 29, 2025, 05:16:06 pm
Quote from: stamfordman on July 29, 2025, 05:14:08 pm
They sometimes record valve positions in notes.

Would they not take a photograph to do that?

No - more likely to just quickly note positions. Taking pictures of many vehicles not in contravention is not productive.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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Quote from: stamfordman on July 29, 2025, 05:20:06 pm
Quote from: LT on July 29, 2025, 05:16:06 pm
Quote from: stamfordman on July 29, 2025, 05:14:08 pm
They sometimes record valve positions in notes.

Would they not take a photograph to do that?

No - more likely to just quickly note positions. Taking pictures of many vehicles not in contravention is not productive.

I'd have thought quicker to take a photo and delete it later than make notes, but I take your point. There are very few parking zones in the centre of Bath that are not either residents permits only or that you have to pay for.

Question is, do I have any grounds to challenge this without any tangible proof of when I initially parked? 
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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You are clutching at straws IMO.

The CEO's evidence will be their notes. Are you suggesting that on one of their regular patrols in which notes would have been taken of numerous vehicles prior to yours the CEO issued the PCN and then counted back to the random time of 8.04? But if their notes don't show them in the road at 8.04 then they could whistle goodbye to their job. All to issue you with a PCN.

The legal test at adjudication is balance of probabilities. You've not provided any evidence, however circumstantial, that you parked nearer to 9am.

You must have a routine, you get up, you go to work, you catch a train, you open a shop.....something must have happened after you parked. You've given us nothing to work with.
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Re: Proof of observed times.
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Quote from: H C Andersen on July 29, 2025, 05:58:54 pm
You are clutching at straws IMO.

The CEO's evidence will be their notes. Are you suggesting that on one of their regular patrols in which notes would have been taken of numerous vehicles prior to yours the CEO issued the PCN and then counted back to the random time of 8.04? But if their notes don't show them in the road at 8.04 then they could whistle goodbye to their job. All to issue you with a PCN.

The legal test at adjudication is balance of probabilities. You've not provided any evidence, however circumstantial, that you parked nearer to 9am.

You must have a routine, you get up, you go to work, you catch a train, you open a shop.....something must have happened after you parked. You've given us nothing to work with.

I left a house where I was alone, drove my vehicle to the street and parked, then walked to house of a relative who was on holiday, where I did some tasks and left again.

No proof whatsoever, other than my word and possibly that my vehicle may have ben detected by CCTV en route. Odd I know, but hence my query regarding CEO proof. If I had evidence to prove otherwise, I wouldn't waste the time of anyone on here.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2025, 06:42:22 pm by LT »
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