Author Topic: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhold Rd  (Read 1072 times)

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Good evening,
may I please have some help with the PCN issued. I am quite desperate as I believe tomorrow is the last day that I can make a representation to the London Tribunal.

I received a PCN on 23.01 and I contested it because I have found information on the web in regards to similar circumstances as mine. I was driving in the moving traffic and further down the car from the right turn lane indicated to move over to the left just before turning right. That caused all the traffic in my lane to stop briefly and I was caught in the box junction for 7 seconds.
I appealed on 08.02 on the basis that when I entered the box junction the traffic was moving and I had no reason to stop before entering the box junction and that I was a part of moving traffic which was halted due to vehicle changing lanes.

I did not hear anything back and there was no contact email in the email confirmation of my appeal, so I had to contact the TFL via the help email provided on their website to inform them I had no correspondence yet. (This was about 3-4 weeks after not receiving anything.) I have been battling a cold for 4 weeks and I was not on top of most things.

I heard back from them on the 14.03 with an attachment informing me that the Notice of Rejection was issued on the 26.02 and that I ought to pay £160 fine. I emailed them back and asked for the original Notice of Rejection and I stated the fact I should have 14 days to pay the discounted rate of £80. They emailed me back on the 15.03 with an original Notice of Rejection but made no mention of the discounted rate.

I went on the website tonight and the PCN is stated as £160 so I emailed them back again to enquire about the 14 days period since the receipt of the Notice of Rejection via email.

Ideally I would like to appeal to the London Tribunals as I could not have anticipated what will happen further down the road. If you don't think I have a case I would very much appreciate the advice on how to obtain the possibility to pay a discounted fee since I have not received the Notice of Rejection until 15.03.

I tried to look on the TFL website for the video but did not know how to find it as I have never done this before. It also took me ages to work out Imgur and how to make a new post on here.

Thank you very much for your time!













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« Last Edit: March 24, 2024, 08:39:27 pm by Seaside »

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You have a little more time than you think (but only a little).  Presumed date of service of the notice of rejection was 28 February (2 business days after posting).  That gives a deadline to appeal of 26 March, i.e. Tuesday.

If TFL won't accept the discounted rate then there is no financial incentive not to appeal.  You will need to get the video asap which TFL only offer via posted DVD if you call up to all for it.

Wait for help from others but you might be best served making a skeleton appeal to London tribunals and beefing it up later when you have the video.

Thank you so  much for your reply. I found a viewmypcn.co.uk website but it says my PCN is not found. Do you mean I have to make a phone call and ask for the video please?
I am travelling on Thursday evening for Easter holidays and I will not be here when the DVD arrives. Do you know if there is another way to obtain a copy of the video?
Many thanks for your reply once again.

How long will you be away for?  TFL usually take several days (1-2 weeks) to get it to you in the post.  Any tribunal date is likely to be long after this so it's not an immediate concern.  You will have to lodge your appeal before you see it.  The photos don't look promising but the video is the proper evidence.

You need to ring them tomorrow morning to request it.  It's not available online.

Your complicating factor is that you haven't seen the video - just read the PCN for how to obtain this, it's perfectly straightforward but needs you to request a copy from TfL. And this is where you are exposed because if you go beyond 26th March then you would miss the statutory deadline for registering an appeal. You should NOT be placed in jeopardy simply because you did not receive the NOR in time. TfL have written to you stating that they will only accept the full penalty.

In my opinion you should ignore the NOR dated 26 Feb.

You have the right to register an appeal within the 28-day period beginning when the NOR is presumed served i.e. the 28 Feb. It is not your task to panic and rush around within what is now a severely truncated period AND you should be entitled to pay the discount as you would have been had the NOR arrived in time.

The Tribunal will take the 28th Feb. as the presumed date of service, not when TfL sent you a copy.

The procedural play is to wait for the Charge Cert and then the Order for Recovery and then submit a statutory declaration to get the matter referred to the adjudicator by TfL, NOT you. 

The alternative would be to play TfL's game, register an ill-researched appeal before 26th with nothing more than relying on your formal reps; once notified of optional appeal hearing dates select one which is sufficiently ahead so that you could request and receive a copy of the CCTV record in sufficient time to allow you to view; gauge opinion and, if necessary, submit further representations to the adjudicator prior to your hearing.

See what others think.

How long will you be away for?  TFL usually take several days (1-2 weeks) to get it to you in the post.  Any tribunal date is likely to be long after this so it's not an immediate concern.  You will have to lodge your appeal before you see it.  The photos don't look promising but the video is the proper evidence.

You need to ring them tomorrow morning to request it.  It's not available online.

Thank you very much for the reply. I come back on the 17.04. Are you able to offer any advice on correct legal vocabulary to be used please?

I found this extract online about entering box junction in moving traffic. It includes the case where review states the person could not have predicted what will happen on the road ahead. what are your thoughts on this please?

Quote
"
If, once you have entered the box, somebody takes your lane thereby causing you to have to stop within the box then you have grounds for appeal.
You cannot be expected to take account of another driver doing something which you cannot anticipate (or even see as in Orgil below).

See Orgil v LB Barnet London Tribunals case reference 2160413115.
Adjudicators decisions are not binding but Orgil follows that of Essoo v LB Barnet where the original decision to refuse was overtuned on review.

The key question is was what happened predictable?

Review said said:
In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.

We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
"
Unqote

Your complicating factor is that you haven't seen the video - just read the PCN for how to obtain this, it's perfectly straightforward but needs you to request a copy from TfL. And this is where you are exposed because if you go beyond 26th March then you would miss the statutory deadline for registering an appeal. You should NOT be placed in jeopardy simply because you did not receive the NOR in time. TfL have written to you stating that they will only accept the full penalty.

In my opinion you should ignore the NOR dated 26 Feb.

You have the right to register an appeal within the 28-day period beginning when the NOR is presumed served i.e. the 28 Feb. It is not your task to panic and rush around within what is now a severely truncated period AND you should be entitled to pay the discount as you would have been had the NOR arrived in time.

The Tribunal will take the 28th Feb. as the presumed date of service, not when TfL sent you a copy.

The procedural play is to wait for the Charge Cert and then the Order for Recovery and then submit a statutory declaration to get the matter referred to the adjudicator by TfL, NOT you. 

The alternative would be to play TfL's game, register an ill-researched appeal before 26th with nothing more than relying on your formal reps; once notified of optional appeal hearing dates select one which is sufficiently ahead so that you could request and receive a copy of the CCTV record in sufficient time to allow you to view; gauge opinion and, if necessary, submit further representations to the adjudicator prior to your hearing.

See what others think.

Thank you very much for the reply. I do not know what happens in these situations as I have never been in one before. What is the Charge Cert and the Order for Recovery please?
Do you think the Tribunal will take into the account the fact I have not received the NOR and once I enquired about the outcome I got served the maximum amount?
Are you able to offer your opinion on the reply I have put on a post above regarding the outcome of the same situation on entering the box junction please?
Many thanks once again.

I just read all 6 pages of the PCN again but I can't find the information on how to obtain the video. Are you able to point me in the right direction of where it is please?

Thank you so  much for your reply. I found a viewmypcn.co.uk website but it says my PCN is not found. Do you mean I have to make a phone call and ask for the video please?
I am travelling on Thursday evening for Easter holidays and I will not be here when the DVD arrives. Do you know if there is another way to obtain a copy of the video?
Many thanks for your reply once again.
TfL are in the dark ages, and do not put their videos on the above website; you have to phone them and ask for the video which is sent by DVD. Yes, it is a PITA, but unlikely to change soon.

would recommend just submitting a simple appeal to tribunal to say you rely on formal representations and will provide further evidence on review of council evidence bundle including video and also that you did not receive the notice of rejection

tribunal appeals can be rescheduled etc and you are going to get an appeal date in May now (which can get rescheduled for no reason) so no point delaying the whole thing unless you want this hanging over for months

OP, judging by your experience, imminent holiday and apparent belief in your case(which renders the discount a non-issue), then I think you should follow taffer87's advice and register your appeal (choose a date sufficiently ahead, May is likely) and request the DVD from TfL. Then when you are refreshed and armed with the DVD come back here.

And pl, pl stop posting at such length: until you and we have seen the DVD then you are just scrabbling in the dark.

Quote
then I think you should follow taffer87's advice and register your appeal (choose a date sufficiently ahead, May is likely)  - HCA

+1

when registering the appeal, make sure you opt for a hearing: do not choose a decision on papers.


I appealed on 08.02 on the basis that when I entered the box junction the traffic was moving and I had no reason to stop before entering the box junction and that I was a part of moving traffic which was halted due to vehicle changing lanes.


I must point out that if this is the only grounds of appeal - this will lose at the tribunal - entering the box junction in moving traffic is not a winning argument and is exactly what box junctions are designed to prevent (i.e. waiting for clearance ahead before entering).. obviously if you had space when you entered but someone else took it by coming from another lane etc that would be an solid point as would if you actually had enough space to clear the box but chose not to for whatever reason (so were not stopped due to stationary vehicles)

Looks like TFL have received and accepted a partial payment, so that's the end of the matter:

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Thank you all for you time and advice. Due to the length of my imminent holiday and my lack of knowledge, and quite frankly fear of getting involved in something I know nothing about, I decided to call them again and pay the fine.

Thank you very much once again.