3. PE2 AND PE3 refused
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PE2 AND PE3 refused
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Hello there,
Im sure Im not the first and probably my case is not that special. Just to mention as it seems important English is not my mother language and Im absolutely lost in any terminology related to law. Please be patient. I red all I could find on forum but it is lots of information and it is little confusing and as it is never happened to me before so officially Im lost. Not mentioning that Im just went to bankruptcy and trying to make my living with Universal Credit support again it was just a click from stars to the stair so im underline below. Cut it short by trying to get any possible help I obliviously lost some time and now I have just few days left until Im in title to file N224 with TEC. Basically I live where I work or close to and I moved to Brent without permission for registered address just simple post without registration. So I kept my permanent address live. In a main time I stopped at yellow boxes section due to traffic and from day when the matter accrue till day when my car was towed away from not registered place of living (have to admit bailiffs do search well) I had no idea I actually had PCN issued in a first place. Mistery but I never received anything and I have been coming back obliviously to check on post and other things from time to time. I even have another PCN for speed assess sent to my registered address but never and nothing regarding that PCN which Im asking for help with now. So address is not an issue. I moved on the 19th of Feb 2023 to my new address and only then I change address on my DL as now I moved permanently.
Comming to subject of PCN. One evening a week bf bailiffs took my vehicle away I noticed a white van almost every evening parked just behind me and then the same van on the day when car been towed away. Where should I start? On the 8th of Feb I realized that my car is not parked any longer. Took me a half day trying to locate it and finally Im at DVLA pound paying borrowed £624 with no much discussion as apparently the workers just renting the land and DVLA representatives are based somewhere else. Payed, car taken. I found a sticker on the car with the mobile nr and other information attached to the side window. Called to all numbers on and been advised to fail PE2 and PE3 forms to TEC. Not far ago received Refusal and need to apply against it or whatever it calls. Im attaching everything I have. Please please please, anyone, advise what should i do next?
Thank you very much for your help regardless. If I knew this forums are existing..Anyway you do a massive help to simple citizens. Amazing how system makes you feel so powerless.
Files are uploaded here https://flic.kr/ps/42sqY3
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #1 on: »
Have you already gone bankrupt?

If yes, when was the bankruptcy order made?

If not, when do you think the bankruptcy order will be made?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: John Lewis on June 18, 2023, 07:35:38 am
..................
I even have another PCN for speed assess sent to my registered address but never and nothing regarding that PCN which Im asking for help with now. So address is not an issue.
..................

"speed assess"? do you mean that your have received a Notice of Intended Prosecution for a speeding offence? Or what exactly? If you've received any form of notice concerning a speeding offence then you should start a separate topic in the 'Speeding and other criminal offences forum'.
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 18, 2023, 05:14:23 pm
Have you already gone bankrupt?

If yes, when was the bankruptcy order made?

If not, when do you think the bankruptcy order will be made?



Yes i did. Order made on : 22/02/2023
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Enceladus on June 19, 2023, 12:16:16 am
Quote from: John Lewis on June 18, 2023, 07:35:38 am
..................
I even have another PCN for speed assess sent to my registered address but never and nothing regarding that PCN which Im asking for help with now. So address is not an issue.
..................

"speed assess"? do you mean that your have received a Notice of Intended Prosecution for a speeding offence? Or what exactly? If you've received any form of notice concerning a speeding offence then you should start a separate topic in the 'Speeding and other criminal offences forum'.

I received the order on 23/08/2022 for exceeding speed limit sent to my old address. I dont need any help with that it sorted, thanks. I just fought it worth to mention it as I still was receiving post from anyone else and I have no idea why I haven't received anything from Brent council in the same time.
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #5 on: »
The PCN pre-dates the bankruptcy order, so the debt cannot be enforced against you.

For now just send a copy of the bankruptcy order to the council.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 19, 2023, 10:00:32 am
The PCN pre-dates the bankruptcy order, so the debt cannot be enforced against you.

For now just send a copy of the bankruptcy order to the council.

Thanks for getting back to me. Just to double check as I called to council ones refusal from TEC received and I made them aware Im a bankrupt. Council said I need to go for that N244 and if I can't afford to pay the fees to apply for EX160A - which I did. Bankruptcy had a place after I paid to bailiffs one of the reason I actually made bankruptcy order happened- I simply was running out of money not making enough.

Is sending order to Council still make sense? Please advise
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #7 on: »
Can you show us the bankruptcy order please?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 21, 2023, 10:49:29 pm
Can you show us the bankruptcy order please?

Sure please see attached, thank you very much!

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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #9 on: »
This is really, really easy.

The PCN is from 2022, and you were made bankrupt in February 2023, so it's not your debt any more, it's a debt of the bankrupt estate.

I suggest you call Marston Recovery, explain that you are bankrupt, and offer to send them a copy of the bankruptcy order, and that will be the end of the matter.

If a bailiff turns up at your house, just show them the bankruptcy order and they will go away.

Don't bother filling any an N244 or spending any more time or money on this, as it would be pointless and unnecessary.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 23, 2023, 03:39:05 pm
This is really, really easy.

The PCN is from 2022, and you were made bankrupt in February 2023, so it's not your debt any more, it's a debt of the bankrupt estate.

I suggest you call Marston Recovery, explain that you are bankrupt, and offer to send them a copy of the bankruptcy order, and that will be the end of the matter.

If a bailiff turns up at your house, just show them the bankruptcy order and they will go away.

Don't bother filling any an N244 or spending any more time or money on this, as it would be pointless and unnecessary.

Thank you very much for the above, now I understand the matter better, still.. Just to double check that Im missing nothing: PCN issued in 2022(I never received, as I never heard from Marston), my vehicle been towed away on 8 Feb 2023 (that's the day I realized that PCN has been issued in a first place), to get my car out I borrowed £ and payed to Marston what covers council PCN fees and Marston's services commissions. I made the bankruptcy order on 20 Feb 2023 and I sent PE2,PE3 to TEC. I wasn't successful and I received refusal on 25th May 2023. I just wanna get money back as I never received PCN in a first place, so I never knew that Marston after me.
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Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: John Lewis on June 26, 2023, 09:26:16 am
Thank you very much for the above, now I understand the matter better, still.. Just to double check that Im missing nothing: PCN issued in 2022(I never received, as I never heard from Marston), my vehicle been towed away on 8 Feb 2023 (that's the day I realized that PCN has been issued in a first place), to get my car out I borrowed £ and payed to Marston what covers council PCN fees and Marston's services commissions. I made the bankruptcy order on 20 Feb 2023 and I sent PE2,PE3 to TEC. I wasn't successful and I received refusal on 25th May 2023. I just wanna get money back as I never received PCN in a first place, so I never knew that Marston after me.
You could pursue this, the problem is that you paid the bailiffs before you went bankrupt. Therefore even if you succeed, the refund won't go to you, it will go to your trustee in bankruptcy (almost certainly the Official Receiver).

The way bankruptcy works is this: you no longer owe any of the debts that pre-date the bankruptcy order, but you don't own any of the assets either, so any refund for anything that happened before 20 February 2023 won't go to you anyway (there are a few exceptions like compensation for personal injury, but nothing relevant in this case).

As you wouldn't get the money anyway, I don't think it's worth your time doing anything about this. At most, you could tell the Official Receiver about this potential refund and they can decide whether to pursue it for the benefit of your creditors (but I doubt it would be worth the Official Receiver's time).
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PE2 AND PE3 refused
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 26, 2023, 01:13:06 pm
Quote from: John Lewis on June 26, 2023, 09:26:16 am
Thank you very much for the above, now I understand the matter better, still.. Just to double check that Im missing nothing: PCN issued in 2022(I never received, as I never heard from Marston), my vehicle been towed away on 8 Feb 2023 (that's the day I realized that PCN has been issued in a first place), to get my car out I borrowed £ and payed to Marston what covers council PCN fees and Marston's services commissions. I made the bankruptcy order on 20 Feb 2023 and I sent PE2,PE3 to TEC. I wasn't successful and I received refusal on 25th May 2023. I just wanna get money back as I never received PCN in a first place, so I never knew that Marston after me.
You could pursue this, the problem is that you paid the bailiffs before you went bankrupt. Therefore even if you succeed, the refund won't go to you, it will go to your trustee in bankruptcy (almost certainly the Official Receiver).

The way bankruptcy works is this: you no longer owe any of the debts that pre-date the bankruptcy order, but you don't own any of the assets either, so any refund for anything that happened before 20 February 2023 won't go to you anyway (there are a few exceptions like compensation for personal injury, but nothing relevant in this case).

As you wouldn't get the money anyway, I don't think it's worth your time doing anything about this. At most, you could tell the Official Receiver about this potential refund and they can decide whether to pursue it for the benefit of your creditors (but I doubt it would be worth the Official Receiver's time).


I see, thank you very much! Now all crystal clear
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