3. Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
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Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
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Hi Guys,

I've received three days ago a Council PCN that was never served but claimed to have been served, two issues the loading bay had no time of day restrictions, and car was observed in photo for 1 min apart, how best to deal with this. On the face of it looks like car moved while warden observed from a distance and was not able to issue paper work but NTO claims it was.

See attached, (note other 5 pages contain just how to pay, make representation etc etc so not uploaded.

Any help appreciated with the response.

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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #1 on: »
Quote
(note other 5 pages contain just how to pay, make representation etc etc so not uploaded.

Need to see all pages (often mistakes in the 'small print'), any Council photos, and a GSV link to the location.
Please reinstate reg mark and PCN number.

For guidance on posting see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

I find https://imgbb.com/ works very well, as long as you scroll down for each image and copy and paste the BBcode.

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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks for suggestion, Find attached rest of document.

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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #3 on: »
Can you be a bit more explicit on why no PCN was served. PCNs can be served to car or drive. Service of a Notice to Owner without first serving a PCN is a procedural impropriety, but we have to be clear on what happened "on the day".
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 08:17:17 pm
Can you be a bit more explicit on why no PCN was served. PCNs can be served to car or drive. Service of a Notice to Owner without first serving a PCN is a procedural impropriety, but we have to be clear on what happened "on the day".

I left the scene before the PCN was completed and put on the car, so it was not served is my definition. My understanding its either its cancelled or a posted PCN with a discount offer of 14 days, then an NTO follows, but an NTO 32 days later has now arrived with full payment being requested.
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #5 on: »
OK, so no PCN was served. Council will claim it was in preparation and served a postal PCN in accordance with the process defined in the TMA 2004, so have behaved correctly so far.

If the loading bay sign had no times, it means it applies 24 hours. If no days, then its 24x7.

It's up to you now whether to submit reps or just pay-up.
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 09:24:36 pm
OK, so no PCN was served. Council will claim it was in preparation and served a postal PCN in accordance with the process defined in the TMA 2004, so have behaved correctly so far.

If the loading bay sign had no times, it means it applies 24 hours. If no days, then its 24x7.

It's up to you now whether to submit reps or just pay-up.


Okay thanks for advice, so you saying had the PCN been placed on the car and paid it would have been £45 and now its £130,00. Cheers, so I won't waste any more time playing with words, its probably cost me £200 of time farting around with thinking about this already. :-\

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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #7 on: »
No, half of £130 = £65.
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 09:39:32 pm
No, half of £130 = £65.

But the letter no longer offers the 50% discount, see attached :(
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #9 on: »
Sorry, it was your use of the term "Council PCN " that has confused me. It is not a PCN, but a Notice to Owner, and the council claim on the NtO they served a PCN. But you say you received nothing at the location of parking.  So, no service of PCN and service of a Notice to Owner is a procedural impropriety. They should have served a postal PCN instead.

So what you do now is submit reps on the basis that the NtO is a procedural impropriety because no PCN was served to driver or car at the location where the contravention is alleged to have taken place.

Post up their reply when you get it. Do not pay the NtO. If they fail to give way, take them to adjudication.

HOwever, it would be prudent to check their website for any photos if you haven't already done soi=.  Most CEOs are trained to take a photo of the PCN stuck on the windscreen.
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #10 on: »
Please give us the PCN number and the number plate. The council will claim that the PCN was properly served so seeing the council evidence is critically important before any reliable advice can be given.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on September 21, 2023, 11:21:24 pm
Sorry, it was your use of the term "Council PCN " that has confused me. It is not a PCN, but a Notice to Owner, and the council claim on the NtO they served a PCN. But you say you received nothing at the location of parking.  So, no service of PCN and service of a Notice to Owner is a procedural impropriety. They should have served a postal PCN instead.

So what you do now is submit reps on the basis that the NtO is a procedural impropriety because no PCN was served to driver or car at the location where the contravention is alleged to have taken place.

Post up their reply when you get it. Do not pay the NtO. If they fail to give way, take them to adjudication.

HOwever, it would be prudent to check their website for any photos if you haven't already done soi=.  Most CEOs are trained to take a photo of the PCN stuck on the windscreen.

You're star, I wrote a letter and challenged it for "procedural impropriety" as my representation and got a letter today to say the PCN has been cancelled. Thanks so much  :)  :)
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Re: Contravention 25 NTO sent for a PCN that was never served.
« Reply #12 on: »
Well done !!
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