3. PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
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ChocolateGinger

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PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« on: May 03, 2024, 11:46:23 pm »
On Saturday I parked on a road I thought was free parking and received a PCN.

I drove down a road called Walworth Place where signs meant free parking. I couldn't find a space so I turned right (Bronti Close) and parked on the left where there was a spot.

When I came back I saw that I had a ticket. I was shocked as I wasn't parked on a yellow line and had thought it was free parking.

I read the ticket and it said I'd failed to park with a Valid Virtual permit or Valid Physical Permit.

I walked out to the corner, looked around again and noticed the sign for Permit Holders Only.
I didn't see the sign when I was going in and I didn't see any permit on the two cars before mine.

I'm so sorry about this especially as before leaving home my DH had reminded me to be careful and I had said I would be very careful. GBP65 is a lot of money.

Please is there any way out at all?

 
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2024, 12:05:33 am »
Quote
Please is there any way out at all?
Well, possibly there is, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.

Do be aware that many of what seem to be "no hope" cases are won because the enforcing council are not obeying the law either !
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cp8759

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2024, 12:46:26 am »
@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2024, 09:55:29 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on May 04, 2024, 12:05:33 am
, but you've told us nothing at all of any use to us. So please read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and then update your post accordingly.
Thank you.
My heading stipulates as required, the body explains what happened and I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.

Apologies if I've missed what you're pointing me to,  I'm more than willing to provide the info you need.
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ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2024, 10:05:30 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 04, 2024, 12:46:26 am
@ChocolateGinger as Incandescent indicates we need to see the PCN without any redactions to give proper advice, but my first observation is that they've used an off-street code but there does not appear to be anything to alter you that it's an off-street car park.

The relevant order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012 and the map for the Nelson Estate is on page 89.
Thank you for your advice. I  posted the PCN twice.
 I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region. I also tried using the Facebook sign up option not just email but it says they have a problem with Facebook.
The only details missing are the colour, make and reg.
I'm on my phone at the moment and shall try it on my laptop.

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Incandescent

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2024, 12:59:48 am »
Sorry, it seems I missed your buried links which is easy to do in the early hours of the morning !



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ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2024, 11:46:15 am »
Still not able to sign up to that website.
I see that it's possible to see photos taken by the officer.

I'll have access to my laptop and the PCN later today but in the meantime can you please use the information to access the site?

https://pcnevidence.southwarkparking.co.uk/pcnonline/index.php

JK13271926
PO70TXC

Thank you.
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cp8759

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2024, 04:08:50 pm »
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on May 04, 2024, 10:05:30 pm
I tried the website suggested for hosting but it says I can't register as it's not available in my region.
Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:

















This should be easy enough:

Dear London Borough of Southwark,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park.

As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of parking, and stating that failure to comply with the requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in a penalty charge notice being served.

At this location there appears to be no signage at all informing users that they are in an off-street car park, so there is nothing to advise motorists that this is an off-street car park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to inform users that the bay markings and signs are anything more than merely advisory.

I would suggest it is wholly improper for an authority to fail to convey the requirements of a parking places order or even tell motorists that the land in question is a designated off-street car park, and then say "Surprise! you have a statutory PCN!" when the motorist had no way of knowing there are any enforceable restrictions at all.

I had been given no information about the fact that this was an off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any restrictions, let alone what those restrictions might be.

In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. Obviously don't expect the council to concede, this will likely have to go to the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2024, 11:13:01 pm »
Thank you CP8759, especially for providing the Order, pointing out where the estate map is in the Order and going as far as writing out the appeal!

I'd spent so much time trying to find the estate in the Order and as I came to draft my reply I saw you'd actually stated the page it's on! You are very helpful and much appreciated.

The map shows Bronti Close is on street parking and following from your comment and stated in your draft re Con 85 being off street, I Googled what that means and it shows that Con 85 is a contravention under Off Street Car Park Contraventions! The street is on street parking, but they've used off street con.

I'll submit the appeal as stated and hope they concede and I don't have to go all the way to the tribunal.

I did try repeatedly to access Igmur.com. On my phone there's no "New Post" anywhere on the screen and it won't let me sign in into my newly set up account.
On my laptop the "New Post" is seen at the top left corner of the page but it doesn't open to a usable page when I click on it. It opens to a page with the sign up and sign in options in the top right and Imgur on the left but nowhere to actually upload photos of the PCN.

I was attempting to upload the PCN (which I'd uploaded on IBB.com) to Igmur for ease of viewing the PCN in my post. As I was experiencing difficulty, I posted the reg and PCN which were not visible on the PCN so that readers can view the parking officer's photos if they wish.
I wasn't trying to upload photos of the car, only the PCN. I prefer photos of the car to not be in the post please.

Thank you once again.

Quote from: cp8759 on May 05, 2024, 04:08:50 pm
Imgur is available worldwide (apart from maybe places like China or North Korea) and I can see your IP address belongs to a mainstream UK ISP, so there is no reason why it would not work unless you have some really weird internet settings. You also don't need an account, the "new post" link in the top left will work regardless of whether you have an account or not.

That being said, I've posted the photos for you:


..... The PCN alleges an off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking created by the off-street parking places order to users of the car park....
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ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am »
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.

It appears ime to make a formal representation when I receive the NTO. I have not received that yet.
I'm travelling for 3 weeks this weekend but shall keep an eye on my emails

If I've got this wrong please correct me.

Thank you.
I
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2024, 11:37:09 am »
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.

It appears ime to make a formal representation when I receive the NTO. I have not received that yet.
I'm travelling for 3 weeks this weekend but shall keep an eye on my emails

If I've got this wrong please correct me.

Thank you.
I
The NtO is sent by mail to the name and address on the V5 Regtistration Certificate for the car, not by email.
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John U.K.

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2024, 11:57:01 am »
+1

If Southwark have a page for a PCN's status/history you should be able to keeep an eye on that. You could also check it now to see if it has been sent and not yet arrived.
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cp8759

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2024, 11:24:45 pm »
Quote from: ChocolateGinger on June 19, 2024, 10:14:13 am
I received a rejection of my appeal a few weeks ago. I have been away and missed the email.
The letter is dated 24th May.
@ChocolateGinger well let's see it please.

Also this is a bit concerning:



You may want to contact the council and ask if the NTO has been issued, and if so whether they can email you a copy.

If all else fails, you might just have to send a "blind" representation by post to prevent them from issuing a charge certificate.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2024, 03:21:08 am »
Attached is the rejection (dated 25.5.24) of my appeal.
It says, "do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives".

I've not received this form.

I've received an Order for Recovery and have until 4.10.24 to pay £205 or make a witness statement on any of 4 grounds if it applies.
I'll post that next.

I didn't receive any other letter from them.

I was out of the country from the end of June till early August and had a major surgery so when I returned to the country I didn't return home but went to stay with family to help support my recuperation.

 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 03:25:38 am by ChocolateGinger »
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ChocolateGinger

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Re: PCN Southwark - Contravention 85 Parked Without A Valid Virtual Permit Or Valid Physical Permit Where Required.
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2024, 03:32:41 am »
I'm unable to upload images so here's a link to the rejection of appeal.

https://ibb.co/QbJYZYJ
https://ibb.co/qFLHrqR
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