3. PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
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PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
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 I am posting for the first time here:)



Received this pcn from the southward council. Walworth Road, Junction Elephant Road.
I performed a prohibited right turn, according to the council.


Would like to know if there is any chance to appeal against it?


I recently went to the site where the contravention seemed to have taken place.

Noticing that there are bus lanes on both sides of the road,it is quite possible that
when I did make the right turn, the signs were obscured the buses.( the video I have taken would indicate that too)

If we take it to the adjudicator, the only sign the council can rely on is one on the road
asking motorists to go straight ahead ( it is an instruction not a prohibition)




Here are the links that would help. (google drive)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G92ytf5Dum-vE-TGoz4mXWTCjyRVyNpC/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hMi5ArOqAS_2FIzJssfMkKs7tpuEdUT1/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tmb7nH9MvmJugp1DEzObsuNzfcX3vdDl/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1phCrp2QcmEW1QNpj0nq_NqfakZ--Ju_l/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13bCV0pRDieJF2UP7P0fGd0mb2zeo9_KS/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MBv11XII-lks6hMntM_hExSvNeVtIWkW/view?usp=drive_link




If the google drive does not work here are the links on dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/szf271pkwsrfgop/1...887127.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vihbi3w6qzeee4/1...887136.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cvjfy6nt7ytafnq/1...887155.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i8xkfm2s92l3vzt/V...205123.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2frpb3ixjgxic3/V...205024.mp4?dl=0

Your help would be appreciated.

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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #1 on: »
You need to please post all sides of the PCN (just hide your address), couldn’t spot it in the links you shared
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #2 on: »
Please find attached the pcn copy. Thank you

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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #3 on: »
You need to give us the PCN number and number plate please.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you.

Pcn Number JK04655133
NK20ZYV
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #5 on: »
Video:



Sign: https://goo.gl/maps/f3nAVf4yWnrQWvVS8

Traffic order: The London Borough of Southwark (Prescribed Routes) (Various Streets) (No. 4) Traffic Order 2011

It would basically be down to whether you could persuade an adjudicator that both signs happened to be obstructed by buses, but you aren't in a position to say that that's what happened (if you remembered there being buses on boths sides of the road you would have said so), you can only say that that might have happened.

I would definitely make representations because as long as the council receives them during the initial 14 day period they will reoffer the discount, but unless they make some sort of procedural mistake in the rejection, I can't really see anything that warrants risking the full penalty at the tribunal.

As always we recommend you put a draft representation on here before sending it to the council.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #6 on: »
Thank you for your feedback.
Few things I would like to mention.

1) Just had a look at the pcn again, it does not say that you have to appeal within 14 days to be able to retain discount, in case of a rejection.
2) The only road marking which can be visible is on the road ( with some wear and tear), but that is an instruction not a prohibition.
3. If it goes the adjudicator will they have any other footage for my car or they will only rely on the one that they have put up on the pcn?

Regards

Harry
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #7 on: »
1) The council doesn't have to re-offer the discount at all, we just happen to know that they do if you make representations within 14 days. There is no legal right to have the discount extended, and they don't have to tell you that they will extend it.

2) The road markings are irrelevant, they don't need any road markings at all. The upright signs on their own would be quite enough, so I'm really not sure why you're so focused on the road markings?

3) At the tribunal they won't have any additional footage of your car, but they will have library photos showing the upright signs.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #8 on: »
2. I talk about road markings because if the other two signs are obscured, the council would like to rely on the markings on the road
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #9 on: »
Is tomorrow the last day of me appealing?
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #10 on: »
Here is my appeal
=================
With the reference to the PCN issued me 19th of June I would like to state that I work for a company and I was on my way to pick up a passenger on elephant road.
I strongly believe that the reasons are missed the two road signs on both sides of the roads is because it's a very busy area and also there are two bus lanes running on both sides of the road.
I have been driving in London as a private hire driver since 2007 and I'm a careful driver.
In my 16 years of driving I've never received a points on my driving licence.
I strongly believe that the reasons for missing those bass signs was heavy traffic i.e busing running on both sides of the road.
On that basis I would like to request this other council to cancel this pcn.
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #11 on: »
Anyway, I tweaked my appeal a bit more and submitted it before I hit the 28day cut off period.

Here it is

Regarding the PCN I received on June 19th, I would like to explain that I work as a driver for a private hire company and was en route to pick up a passenger waiting for me on Elephant Road. Despite my years of experience driving in London since 2007, I missed the two road signs on either side of the road due to the busy surroundings and two bus lanes running alongside the road. I take pride in being a cautious driver and have never accumulated any points on my driving license throughout my 16 years of driving. I firmly believe that the heavy traffic caused by buses on both sides of the road contributed to my missing the sign. Therefore, I humbly request that Southwark Council cancel the issued PCN.
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: harryharoon on July 15, 2023, 03:03:42 pm
2. I talk about road markings because if the other two signs are obscured, the council would like to rely on the markings on the road
I don't think you have enough evidence to show that both signs were obscured, so the whole point around road markings is academic.

Let us know when you get the response, if you're lucky they might make a mistake in the rejection.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #13 on: »
I got the response, the "rejection".

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wf4ew1l86vddw1tvhgcnb/Our-Response-to-you-edited.pdf?rlkey=nwjorhtas29nvl60ba50o6zob&dl=0


In response to your earlier comments about the evidence that both signs were obscured, I would like to say that I went there a few days later
and took pics and a video. A video that I took clearly shows that at one time there were buses running on both sides of the road and if I was in
between those buses, there is no way I will be able to see those two signs. However, yes I agree that I could have only seen the sign on the road.
So this could be a balance of probabilities rather than actual factual evidence.
(No way I could have taken any evidence while I was driving)

Looking forward to having your view on this.
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Re: PCN Received for doing a wrong turn in Southwark
« Reply #14 on: »
You have until 14 August to decide, so don't rush to pay and wait and see what others think.

However personally, I can't see anything that would justify risking an extra £65 to go to the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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