Author Topic: PCN number: PK65201252,Canal Street Multi Storey Car Park Perth, parking in an area reserved for Council Vehicles only  (Read 1076 times)

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I don't really know what to do, so am just sending this

Hello

My car was parked there while for a visit in Perth and had some food in a Cafe. There was a PCN on the window upon return.

It seems the area in question is supposed to be for council vehicles only, but it is not marked as such anywhere in or around the parking bays:
 
{pictures}
Clearly there is no appropriate signage, it is only on hunting around that it can eventually be found that there are white on white signs hidden in the rafters- from the perspective of a driver:
 
 {pictures}

It is not acceptable to expect motorists to see such scant signage.
to highlight, here is a section from the BPA Code of Practice
You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm

These signs are inconspicuous and camouflaged. As are the laminated sheets of paper, also out of view above the eye-line of motorists who are navigating narrow and potentially dangerous turns and ramps. The below was taken when standing to get an angle where the laminates are even visible, you can imagine how hidden they are when in a car!
 {pictures}
 
 The state of the signage around these bays needs to be reviewed seriously- there should be signs at each parking bay, or at the very least between each charger, and conspicuous prominent signage in plain view in the eyeline of motorists. The signs should not only stipulate that an area is for council use, but that there may be penalties for others using it. There should also be clear indication of which area the signs pertain to, is it just the bays below the signs, the front part of the area? It is unclear. This is another reason why signage should be visible to people when parking, close to vehicles, and close to chargers.
In the next images you can see more evidence that there is no signage to indicate the bay should not be used:
{pictures}
The a4 laminate that is supposed to pass for a sign is at least 4 bays away from the vehicle, high up in the rafters, and hidden from view to cars coming down the ramp by the other rafters and the angle at which you are driving.

 
 It should be noted that any other images considered when reviewing the signage should be looked at with discretion, a driver is lower than someone with a camera held high, and a camera with a flash on will make the signs appear almost visible from that perspective. Remember it is drivers who will be expected to notice signage…
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Let us know when you get a response, if you get a notice of rejection addressed to you (and not your employer or the lease company) then it's an easy win as there is no legal basis for the council to demand the penalty from you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Tusker got back to me (i asked them to re-send)
the contents of the authorisation was this



Parking Services Perth
and Kinross Council
35 Kinnoull Street
Perth
PH1 5GD
31/10/2023
To whom it may concern
THIRD PARTY AUTHORISATION LETTER
Please accept this letter as confirmation that Tusker authorise you to communicate directly with the nominated person
detailed below in relation to the Penalty Charge Notice they have received:
Vehicle Registration: RJ23FFX
Reference: PK65201252
Make/Model: 
Contract Start Date:
Contract End Date:
Customer Name:
Customer Address: 
 
The above vehicle is on long term lease with Tusker and the nominated person above has full use of the vehicle.
Kind Regards,
Contract Administration Supervisor
 




This is history and has been overtaken by events.

You received a NTO dated 8 Nov, and this is what counts.

You have until 7 Dec. to make reps to the council.

Have you sent reps?

Hi, I guess reps is the appeal, I got stressed about how long i had, so sent on Friday

I got a letter through at the weekend saying the charge was increase to £150
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 11:23:57 am by Verdomde »

You've left your name & address in.
Did you get a receipt/acknowledgement for your reps?


Quote

No, I haven't had acknowledgement yet

How did you submit? Did you keep a copy?

I am not sure of Scottish processes at CC stage, but someone here will.

I have the document saved (I believe)

I mailed it (there's no digital submission option) 1st class.


You posted on 5 Dec.
Hi, I guess reps is the appeal, I got stressed about how long i had, so sent on Friday

Then:
I mailed it (there's no digital submission option) 1st class.

'Friday' could only mean the preceding Friday, 1 Dec.

You told us that the NTO was dated 8 Nov. The CC says 7th!

So the latest date for submission was either 6/7 Dec.
You posted first-class Fri. 1, therefore the letter was presumed delivered and submitted (irrespective of actual delivery) on 5th which is in time in either case.

Post here the copy of what you submitted and leave in all dates pl.




This is what I sent, will look out the digital copy as I get time (am at work so can't spend much time on this at the moment)

I guess I gave the date I received the letter or something :/ I'll try and find that nto too

And yes, Friday the 1st


I don't really know what to do, so am just sending this

Hello

My car was parked there while for a visit in Perth and had some food in a Cafe. There was a PCN on the window upon return.

It seems the area in question is supposed to be for council vehicles only, but it is not marked as such anywhere in or around the parking bays:
 
{pictures}
Clearly there is no appropriate signage, it is only on hunting around that it can eventually be found that there are white on white signs hidden in the rafters- from the perspective of a driver:
 
 {pictures}

It is not acceptable to expect motorists to see such scant signage.
to highlight, here is a section from the BPA Code of Practice
You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm

These signs are inconspicuous and camouflaged. As are the laminated sheets of paper, also out of view above the eye-line of motorists who are navigating narrow and potentially dangerous turns and ramps. The below was taken when standing to get an angle where the laminates are even visible, you can imagine how hidden they are when in a car!
 {pictures}
 
 The state of the signage around these bays needs to be reviewed seriously- there should be signs at each parking bay, or at the very least between each charger, and conspicuous prominent signage in plain view in the eyeline of motorists. The signs should not only stipulate that an area is for council use, but that there may be penalties for others using it. There should also be clear indication of which area the signs pertain to, is it just the bays below the signs, the front part of the area? It is unclear. This is another reason why signage should be visible to people when parking, close to vehicles, and close to chargers.
In the next images you can see more evidence that there is no signage to indicate the bay should not be used:
{pictures}
The a4 laminate that is supposed to pass for a sign is at least 4 bays away from the vehicle, high up in the rafters, and hidden from view to cars coming down the ramp by the other rafters and the angle at which you are driving.

 
 It should be noted that any other images considered when reviewing the signage should be looked at with discretion, a driver is lower than someone with a camera held high, and a camera with a flash on will make the signs appear almost visible from that perspective. Remember it is drivers who will be expected to notice signage…

I am not sure of Scottish processes at CC stage, but someone here will.

There is no process. Scottish councils have debt recovery powers that English councils don't have. They don't even need to touch a court - a charge certificate is as valid as a sheriff court warrant and can be handed straight to sheriffs officers for enforcement. That's what the bit about "may be enforced as if it were an extract registered decree with a warrant for execution" means. No TEC. No Order for Recovery.

The best thing to do is contact the council ASAP. Scottish councils have been known to accept late challenges and re-offer lower payments. The sooner the better. Once they've handed it over to Stirling Park or Walker Love for collection, you're pretty much stuffed.

OP, why do you post beheaded docs?

The CC omits its date! Pl repost so that all 4 sides are visible, this way we know that everything which needs to be displayed is displayed.

If, as I suspect, this is simply a case of your letter being delivered a little later than the last permitted date (actual delivery being irrelevant in law, it's the presumed date which counts) then you just need to bring this to the council's attention - their website even has a chat link. You would not be arguing the toss about your reps, simply that the CC was premature. In reality, any council which simply times its processes with a hair trigger at this time of year is foolish. The legal reality is that they had no power to issue the CC if your reps were posted* on 1 Dec.

*- posted doesn't mean posting at 10.30pm on 1st in a post box whose next collection was Mon. 2pm, it means posting so that it entered the mail service no later than Sat.

While you're reposting, pl confirm that the postal address used was the one in the NTO.

Hi, thanks for the responses, I didn't get emailed about them, sorry- I will try sort that (i guess there's a button here somewhere)

Got a response back from the Parking support team

Date 11/01/2024

Dear Mr  ,
Notice of Rejection of Representations
Road Traffic Act 1991 (As Amended)
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number: PK65201252
Date of contravention: 17/08/2023
Location: Canal Street Multi Storey Car Park
Vehicle registration: 
Thank you for writing to us.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were given a PCN for parking in an area reserved for Council Vehicles only.
The enclosed photos help to show why your PCN was given.
You have 28 days from the date of this letter being served to:
 pay £100.00; or
 appeal to the Parking Adjudicator. You can do this online using the details provided
below. The Adjudicator can ask one side to pay costs if he or she believes, for
example, that they have been wholly unreasonable. However, the Adjudicator
rarely asks either side to pay costs. The Adjudicator is independent and both sides
must accept the Adjudicator's decision.
If you do nothing
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate
increasing the charge from £100.00 to £150.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the
increased charge. If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may
use sheriff officers to recover the money from you. You will have to pay their costs too.
Delayed Office Opening
for Employee Training
This office will be closed from
8.45am - 11.00am on the first
Thursday of each month.

Communities

Executive Director (Communities) Barbara Renton

How to pay:
online at www.pkc.gov.uk/parkinggateway and click 'Pay online'.
by phone 0345 603 0121
by post Please make your cheque payable to ‘Perth & Kinross Council’, write your
Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) on the back, then send it to: Parking Services,
Perth & Kinross Council, Pullar House, 35 Kinnoull Street, PERTH PH1 5GD.
Yours sincerely
Parking Support Team