Author Topic: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?  (Read 1743 times)

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Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #15 on: »
Application accepted. October 7th.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #16 on: »
Application filed.
Just opened up the FOIR response: complete disconnect between the VCA certificate and the actual camera used! As foreseen by Socrates. ;D This alone should ensure a de novo hearing.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #17 on: »
Now the 8th.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #18 on: »
A story referencing this case was included in the appellant's evidence.

RUCA Register of Appeals
Register Kept Under Section 21 of the Schedule to the Road User Charging (Enforcement and Adjudication)(London) Regulations 2001
Case Details
Case reference 9180006508
Appellant Raymond Bryce
Authority Transport for London
VRM DT66HAA
Decision Cost award refused
PCN Details
PCN TZ18525198
Contravention date 16 Nov 2017
Contravention time 07:02:00
Contravention location Waterloo Bridge
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Failure to pay Congestion charge
Referral date -
Decision Date 05 Feb 2018
Adjudicator Maggie Kennedy
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction TfL will cancel the PCN.
Reasons
Mr Bryce attended a personal hearing of his case; Transport for London (TfL) did not attend.


Mr Bryce works in Croydon and regularly stays in accommodation in and around the charging zone. He is particular about ensuring that he does not drive within the zone during its charging hours. He is so careful that in six months of operating in this way he has never before received a penalty charge notice (PCN).


On this occasion his vehicle was seen at 07:02:41, some two minutes and forty seconds after the charging period commenced. He was leaving the zone to go to work. He appeared to be genuinely surprised that he was still within the zone after 07:00.


One might have expected TfL to exercise their discretion in his favour taking into account the timing and also the absence of any previous incident. They declined to do this as they are strictly entitled providing that they do properly consider the representations made and do not fetter their discretion by applying an inflexible policy.


TfL are also obliged to prove the case against Mr Bryce.


They have produced an authorised officer's certificate telling the Tribunal that the clock on the camera is accurate but this appears to be in standard format and does not describe when the cameras were last checked for accuracy or how they are confirmed to be synchronised with the atomic clock. The Tribunal has generally accepted that TfL could satisfactorily produce this information if required but it is unclear when this was last examined for current accuracy.


TfL also rely upon a number of images taken by the camera apparatus. I understand that there are at least two cameras, including a monochrome camera and a colour camera. Images from both cameras are included in evidence to demonstrate the contravention.


Examination of the images shows, however, that the "Colour Contextual After" image comes from a camera located on Victoria Embankment. This incident is alleged to have occurred on Waterloo Bridge. The photograph is not only of a different location but also, clearly, taken at a different time of day. The images themselves are not timed. This significantly undermines the reliability of the principal evidence.


Taking all of this into account, including Mr Bryce's clear belief that he had left the zone before 07:00, I am not satisfied that the camera evidence is reliable in this particular case. I find, then, that TfL have failed to prove that the alleged contravention occurred.


The appeal is allowed and no payment is required from Mr Bryce.

Cost Details
Application by Appellant
Decision date 14 Mar 2018
Adjudicator Maggie Kennedy
Decision Cost award refused
Direction -
Reasons
The Adjudicator regrets the confusion caused by her mistakenly creating the wrong standard correspondence when dealing with Mr Bryce's application for costs. It was her intention to explain to Mr Bryce that his application could not succeed, for the reasons explained in her notes (and repeated below), but that message was contradicted by the covering letter suggesting that his application could be considered further. This was the Adjudicator's error and she apologises and trusts that Mr Bryce will understand that costs cannot be awarded to him.

The Adjudicator, on considering the costs application, noted:

Mr Bryce was successful in his appeal against this penalty charge notice for the reasons set out in my earlier decision. He now seeks costs against Transport for London to reimburse him for the time he has spent fighting the case.

I entirely understand the request made by Mr Bryce but must decline it. Costs are very rarely awarded in this jurisdiction and it would be necessary, for him to be successful, to show that TfL had been "wholly unreasonable" in pursuing the case. Note that mere unreasonableness will not suffice, their conduct must have been "wholly" unreasonable.

There is no evidence to suggest that TfL's conduct fell to this very low level and whilst their evidence in the case was imperfect the sanction for that was losing the case. It is not appropriate for an award of costs to be made in addition.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 10:41:28 am by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #19 on: »
@cp8759  What is the Network computer? Reliability and maintenance records to be raised.

@Korting Could you please inform me of any policy re issue of such moving traffic contraventions?

In response to the Appellant’s comments that the location was entered at a minute after 4pm in
contrast to PCN incorrectly stating that it was 61 seconds before 4pm; The Local Authority would
inform the Learned Adjudicator that since the CCTV camera times are set by the Network
computer; the time shown on the PCN is the actual time the vehicle entered the restricted location.
The date, timings, frame number, camera number, longitude and latitude are all shown on the
bottom of each still image. This proves the sequence of the images and their location. CCTV
PCNs are issued instantly and no grace periods are not given.


Also:

The information on the PCN complies with the legislation and
the timings on the CCTV are automatically transmitted live. The Secretary of State has issued
Brent Council with Certification of "Approved Device". For the Learned Adjudicator’s perusal a
copy of the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question has been
enclosed
(please see Evidence C).


As stated previously, they produced the wrong certificate. And there are issues with the PCN wording. Also OP will be obtaining a witness statement from their friend re similar timings discrepancy.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 09:52:02 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote
The Local Authority would inform the Learned Adjudicator....
Buttering up - an absolutely classic example

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote
The Local Authority would inform the Learned Adjudicator....
Buttering up - an absolutely classic example
I cannot possibly comment on either the sender or the recipient.  :D
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #22 on: »
@cp8759 Re case 2230509438 "I was sympathetic to the ground of appeal relating to the grounds of representation presented online (i.e. that no specific grounds of appeal were available) but prefer not to express a concluded view upon it."

I have a screenshot of the same. Also, I assume you used the date of service issue?

Furthermore I dispute the validity of the PCN because the payment deadlines are ambiguous and unclear. The PCN asserts that I have 28 days from the date of the notice to make payment, but this is follow by text indicating that the date of service is considered to be 2 working days from the date of the notice. If the payment period is 28 days from the date of the notice then the date of service would be irrelevant, so is appears that the PCN should assert the payment period is 28 days from the date of service of the notice. On the other hand if the payment period is 28 days from the date of the notice, then it would make no sense to indicate how the date of service is to be calculated, as the date of service would be irrelevant. The same ambiguity and uncertainty applies to the 14 day discount period.

In the circumstances the PCN is ambiguous and confusing as to what the payment period is, so the PCN should be cancelled.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 09:56:16 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #23 on: »
@cp8759  What is the Network computer? Reliability and maintenance records to be raised.
@Hippocrates I presume the camera is synchronized to the atomic clock via Network Time Protocol, just like my computers are:



I don't have any certificate from the Secretary of State but it works pretty well, at least to within 0.001 seconds:



Furthermore there is no requirement for cameras to be prescribed or approved by anyone, so the council has gone above and beyond if it has got a certificate anyway.

There is also a common law presumption that an electronic or mechanical device is working correctly unless there is evidence to show otherwise. In this case the evidence to show otherwise would be the dashboard clock, but the adjudicator made a decision on the balance of probabilities that the network-cynec camera clock is probably more accurate, and to be frank she is probably right about that. There was no evidence before the adjudicator that the car's clock was network-synced, and on the basis of that information it is more likely than not that the clock in the car was just running a little fast.

I cannot see that the adjudicator has made any error at all and she is only required to deal with the issues that are raised and the evidence before her, the website ground and the PCN wording issues might have changed the outcome if they had been raised but weren't hadn't. This case is a typical example of why DIY appeals are not such a great idea.

I wish you every success with the review but I think you'll have an uphill battle: a review isn't an opportunity to see if we could have won a case (I'm sure any of us could have), don't take it too badly if the review is refused and pop the champagne if you win. If the review adjudicator concludes that he would have allowed it based on your arguments but that the original adjudicator did not make an error in refusing the appeal based on what she had before her, then the review adjudicator is bound to refuse the review.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #24 on: »
@cp8759 Yes to the no need for an approved device; but, the issue is simple as the certificate supplied refers to the wrong camera.* So, I have a chance for a de novo hearing, particularly when you read what she said about the certificate in terms of corroborating her decision. We'll see. As for the bubbly stuff, unfortunately I am on the wagon.

I have to make a decision on the evidence which clock I find the more reliable, the appellant’s or the Enforcement Authority’s on a balance of probabilities.I find on balance, when considering the summary of facts that the Enforcement Authority’s clock is the more reliable.

*
I am further convinced by the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question as provided in Evidence C.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2024, 12:33:25 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #25 on: »
@Hippocrates that's a good point, so it'll basically come down to what mood the adjudicator is in on the day. They could say the certificate would have made no difference, or that it vitiates the original decision.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #26 on: »
@cp8759 The main issue is that it undermines the reasoning and that the camera cited in the certificate is not the one used. I have the FOIR. And the camera is just identified by a number in the WS. The council must prove its case. If a de novo hearing  is allowed, I will use everything as per usual.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Agree Agree x 1 View List

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #27 on: »
ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2230528523
Appellant Mitesh Varsani
Authority London Borough of Brent
VRM M111TSX
PCN Details
PCN BT20124501
Contravention date 18 Sep 2023
Contravention time 15:43:00
Contravention location Kempe Road Junction with Chamberlayne Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Fail comply restriction vehicles entering ped zone
Referral date -
Decision Date 13 Feb 2024
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons
This vehicle on the council's case failed to comply with a pedestrian zone restriction.

Upon the point being raised by the appellant: the council does not provide any schedule to the Traffic Management Order upon which it relies specifying the streets to which it applies and I am not accordingly satified that it provides support for the contravention that is alleged. The appeal must accordingly be allowed.

***

Well, if I get a  chance, I will raise this!
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #28 on: »
@cp8759 Plus the incomplete TMO supplied.  8) 2230528523
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #29 on: »
Review allowed.  ;D Greek champagne it is. CAIR from Rhodes. A fair swim from Kos.  :-X
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 08:02:36 am by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r