Author Topic: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?  (Read 1811 times)

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PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
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Hello,
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to offer me.

I live right next to a school street, and I am fully aware of the times the entry to the road is restricted. I have never received a ticket for this street before now (it has been in place for almost 2 years).

I received a ticket suggesting I had entered the road at 15.58 when I was sure it was past 4pm when I drove in.

My initial appeal to Brent council was denied and I took it to tribunal. I suggested that the council should have to prove that the time stamp on their CCTV (showing 15.58.59) is accurate.

They provided a certification of "Approved Devices" from 2011 (11 years before this particular school street was put in place) and a certificate signed by an enforcement camera operator which confirms that a contravention has occurred. It is not clear whether this was signed at the time of the contravention or afterwards during a review of the footage, and certainly makes no reference to the accuracy of the time.

I don't believe that either item proves the accuracy/maintenance of the time stamp on the camera.

I referred to another case in my tribunal bumpf, where a congestion charge ticket was revoked because "according to an appeal body, Transport for London failed to confirm that the camera had been synchronised with the atomic clock, meaning that it was unable to prove the timing."
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/traffic-fine-revoked-over-accuracy-of-cameras-vzsflb2nq#:~:text=Doubts%20have%20been%20raised%20over,accuracy%20of%20the%20camera%20system.

I believe this is the same as my situation. However, the appeal was refused:
Conclusion
I am satisfied on the evidence, most notably the CCTV evidence that the contravention occurred.
I have to make a decision on the evidence which clock I find the more reliable, the appellant's or the
Enforcement Authority's on a balance of probabilities.I find on balance, when considering the
summary of facts that the Enforcement Authority's clock is the more reliable.
I am further convinced by the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question
as provided in Evidence C.
I note that the appellant has cited other cases in her favour but each case is decided on its merits.
There is no grace period allowed in respect of this contravention.
The appellant's representations amount to mitigation only and not a ground of appeal. The Court of
Appeal held in the case of Walmsley v Transport for London [2005] EWCA Civ 1540 that no
Adjudicator is entitled by law to take mitigation into consideration.


I don't know whether I have any opportunity to take this further, though I would really like to, as I am so sure I didn't break the rules! If you have any thoughts as to where I could go with this I would love to hear them.

Many thanks,
Krissi

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Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #1 on: »
You can ask for a review of the adjudicator's decision, I would say "in the interests of justice", because with the best will in the world, car clocks can be inaccurate. However, you didn't come on here before going through the process and I'm sure we could have worked-up a much better representation, but we are where we are. It was pretty fatal to your case asking the council to prove their clock was accurate. You should have gone for de minimis, and car clocks generally not totally accurate.

Can you please post-up your reps and also the London Tribunals case ny=umber.  YOu only have a short period in which to request a review. No doubt you got one of the "hanging judge" adjudicators.

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #2 on: »
You are only likely to be granted a review if the adjudicator has made a clear error such as misinterpreting the regulations and that doesn't seem to be case here.

Cases are won on de minimis (triviality) but once you go beyond a minute as here it gets harder.

I don't know if the camera certification has legs - others will.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2024, 03:34:38 pm by stamfordman »

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #3 on: »
OP, the PCN pl and the ETA case number.


Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #4 on: »
Thank you for your swift responses. I do wish I had found and consulted this forum before, but I really feel that I am in the right here and so I hoped my honest and un-strategic response to the PCN would be listened to. We live and learn I suppose.

I have created a google drive with the evidence provided by Brent and my responses. Please let me know if any trouble accessing these.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1LvF7rKh2NmKvhYtNNerWqy7U3e3bHNnQ?usp=drive_link

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Dfsx2FBKdR5gfDmt8QG7gyKUx9tKTnld?usp=drive_link


The PCN is BT21882094
The Tribunals case ref is 2240286001

Thank you



Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #5 on: »
Full adjudication.

-------

   
The appellant makes this appeal on the following grounds :

Grounds of Appeal

They turned in at 16.01, checking the time both on their car clock and their phone clock (which is mounted on the dashboard) before choosing to turn in.

The time on the Penalty Charge Notice is incorrect

The appellant refers to the PCN issue time of 15.58.59 on 22/04/2024, prior to turning into the road, both the dashboard clock and dashboard mounted phone clock were checked, both reading 16.01 hours.

The appellant therefore believes the time stated on Brent's camera footage is incorrect which has been referenced with the noting of another vehicle travelling into Kempe Road,as seen in the PCN and CCTV images, suggesting they perhaps believed it was a valid time to pass through.

The Enforcement Authority’s camera’s timing is incorrect and they do not believe they have proven otherwise.

They have included in evidence news articles regarding a comparable case from 2018.

Their neighbour on Keslake Road also received a PCN, heightening the appellant's view that theEnforcement Authority’s timings are incorrect.

Conclusion

I am satisfied on the evidence, most notably the CCTV evidence that the contravention occurred.

I have to make a decision on the evidence which clock I find the more reliable, the appellant’s or the Enforcement Authority’s on a balance of probabilities.I find on balance, when considering the summary of facts that the Enforcement Authority’s clock is the more reliable.

I am further convinced by the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question as provided in Evidence C.

I note that the appellant has cited other cases in her favour but each case is decided on its merits.

There is no grace period allowed in respect of this contravention.

The appellant's representations amount to mitigation only and not a ground of appeal. The Court of Appeal held in the case of Walmsley v Transport for London [2005] EWCA Civ 1540 that no Adjudicator is entitled by law to take mitigation into consideration.

I do not allow the appeal.


Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #6 on: »
I think the adjudicator was wrong in law, but you'll need to use 'interests of justice'.

De minimis has been ignored, in fact the adjudicator went so far as to say: There is no grace period allowed in respect of this contravention.

There is, it's called de minimis.

Miriam-Webster dictionary defines this as:

'lacking significance or importance : so minor as to merit disregard'

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #7 on: »
The appeal was made on the council's clock being wrong, which was not the way to go. Had the OP followed through on a de minimis challenge it might have succeeded but it was just over 1 minute so not a cert.

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #8 on: »
IMO, the adjudicator is obliged to establish the facts and then apply the law, not just consider the narrow limits of an appellant's appeal grounds. If this were not the case then every appellant would be prospectively disadvantaged because they're not lawyers. 

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #9 on: »
Thank you so much for your responses.

I think it is worth me appealing the adjudicaton "in the interests of justice" as you say. I have nothing to lose. Though I don't have any new evidence as they request...

I am not a lawyer, but I truly believe I didn't drive into the road at the time they say.

From my layman's perspective: the council has firstly not proven how they maintain the timestamp on the CCTV/whether it is linked to the atomic clock, and secondly, the contested time is a second over a minute. Perhaps I can cover both a burden of proof and de minimis argument?

Many thanks,

Krissi


Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #10 on: »
I will drop the OP a PM to examine all the documents in the case and possibly craft a draft application for review. 14 days from the date of the decision.

It is impossible to advise re a review unless we have access to all the documents. Or at least one of us.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 02:23:43 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #11 on: »
Thank you so much. I replied to your DM earlier. Please let me know if you did not receive it. If you did, I will await your response.

Appreciate all of your time!

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #12 on: »
I did. I will take a look later tonight.

This statement is wrong as the VCA certificate refers to Parking Legislation:

I am further convinced by the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question as provided in Evidence C.

I will draft an application tomorrow for you. The Adjudicator is wrong on this point. In any event, a VCA certificate is irrelevant for this contravention; but she cited it and attached misguided weight to it.

PM sent.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2024, 09:36:38 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #13 on: »
Dear Sirs

Under Section 11 of The Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, I make this application for a review of Adjudicator *******'s decision as follows.

Grounds

1. The Adjudicator said this:

I am further convinced by the Approved Device Certification relating to the CCTV camera in question as provided in Evidence C.


With respect, the Adjudicator has misapprehended the fact that the said VCA certificate pertains to a camera concerning Parking Legislation.  Therefore, it follows that the decision is unsafe in this fundamental regard.

2. In light of the above, I ask that a review hearing take place in the interests of justice and that the matter be heard de novo.

Yours faithfully

********

I have messaged you and suggest that I represent you and send this on your behalf as reviews require experienced submissions.

I also recommend that you get a witness statement dated and signed from your neighbour.

I have also checked all their VCA certificates. And a FOIR has been sent to Brent. That kind of rhymes!  In the meantime, I suggest you pay it and I  will do my best to get it reimbursed.

I am fairly certain we will at least achieve a hearing as it is fairly evident that the decision should be overturned on the camera used and the witness statement. I will also incorporate other arguments if the appeal is reheard. There is no way that the camera cited in the certificate was used to capture the contravention.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2024, 04:13:44 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: PCN Kempe Rd J/W Chamberlayne Road - accuracy of time stamp?
« Reply #14 on: »
Application filed.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r