Author Topic: PCN in Council car park, ticket machine printed incorrectly. West Lindsey  (Read 2038 times)

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The West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022 has no provisions about the number plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.

I would definitely wait for the notice to owner.

OK, i've been able to get photos of the car park signage, no mention of requiring vehicle registration, just that a 'valid ticket' is required - no definition of what a ticket is. I've looked through you link too - ty.

So we have decided to challenge and wait for the NTO, however, having never seen one of these before, is there any guidance on how we should reply once received?

Thanks for the help.

Evening all,

Today is the last chance to pay £25 or wait for the NTO. Can someone advise a response to the NTO please? Is there a a template email/letter we can use?

Thank you :)

There is no template, but formal representations just need to be based on your informal reps but updated if necessary to reflect what they have said in their rejection to your informal challenge. Nothing to panic about, anyway. If you put up a draft before submitting, we can check it and tidy it up if necessary.

The basic issue here is that if they want to wallop motorists for not putting a correct reg.number onto their parking ticket, they must first update the Traffic Regulation Order to make it a requirement. They have not done this.
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Quote
Dear West Lindsey Council,

I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. West Lindsey Council allege that the vehicle was deemed to be parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock in John Street Car Park, Market Rasen.

Upon consulting the West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022, the Traffic Management Order has no provisions or requirement for a vehicle registration plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.

Case Law Pay and display - no requirement in TMO for VRM to be printed on ticket:

•   Paul Van Staden v London Borough of Redbridge (2220910825, 14 January 2023)
•   Fozia Rehman v London Borough of Redbridge (2230182021, 20 May 2023)

In the informal representation I made to West Lindsey Council I provided photographic evidence confirming a parking ticket had been purchased over the relevant time and date, however the ticket machine had failed to print the vehicles full registration, and this is the only basis on which the PCN was issued. The ticket machine did not print the first 3 parts of the registration number:

•   Actual vehicle registration: FG19VTD
•   Printed ticked: 9VTD

The issued parking ticket was clearly displayed in my vehicle windscreen along with a handwritten note explaining the ticket machine had failed to print correctly (photographic evidence of this also formed part of my informal challenge to them).
Furthermore, I have revisited the John Street Car Park and there is no signage stipulating that a full vehicle registration number is required (photographic evidence can be supplied).

In their response to my informal challenge, West Lindsey Council accept that I had paid for parking but are unwilling to cancel the PCN and I have now been given the opportunity to appeal to you the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870, if they do not accept any of the above, I nonetheless invite them to reconsider whether it would serve any traffic management purpose to pursue enforcement, considering that parking was paid for in any event.

Yours faithfully,

Could the experts please review my NTO response please :)


You seem to be at the formal representation stage not the tribunal, in which case a little editing is required.

Italicised references would be a common practice.

Include the photo evidence, don't just refer to its existence.

(What exactly is the wording on the machine about the input of a VRM ? That may add an additional point, though the order should be what counts).
« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 08:54:04 am by slapdash »
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Dear West Lindsey Council,

I do not believe that the penalty charge is payable and make representation for PCN QW50152870 on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. West Lindsey Council allege that the vehicle was deemed to be parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock in John Street Car Park, Market Rasen.

Upon consulting the West Lindsey District Council (Off-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement) Order 2022, the Traffic Management Order has no provisions or requirement for a vehicle registration plate being printed anywhere at all, it is simply not a legal requirement.

Case Law Pay and display - no requirement in TMO for VRM to be printed on ticket:

•   Paul Van Staden v London Borough of Redbridge (2220910825, 14 January 2023)
•   Fozia Rehman v London Borough of Redbridge (2230182021, 20 May 2023)

In the informal representation I made to West Lindsey Council I provided photographic evidence confirming a parking ticket had been purchased over the relevant time and date (included here in my representation), however the ticket machine had failed to print the vehicles full registration, and this is the only basis on which the PCN was issued. The ticket machine did not print the first 3 parts of the registration number:

•   Actual vehicle registration: FG19VTD
•   Printed ticked: 9VTD

The issued parking ticket was clearly displayed in my vehicle windscreen along with a handwritten note explaining the ticket machine had failed to print correctly (photographic evidence of this also formed part of my informal challenge to you and is included here again).

Furthermore, I have revisited the John Street Car Park and there is no signage stipulating that a full vehicle registration number is required (photographic evidence supplied).

In your response to my informal challenge, you accept that I had paid for parking but are unwilling to cancel the PCN.

I challenge liability for PCN QW50152870, if you do not accept any of the above, I nonetheless invite you to reconsider whether it would serve any traffic management purpose to pursue enforcement, considering that parking was paid for in any event.

Yours faithfully,

Better? And noted to provide all photo evidence in my reply.




Sign photos

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« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 09:29:56 am by ivrytwr1 »

Didn't hear anything back here - so formal representation submitted. Fingers crossed.

But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.

But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.

I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.

But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.

I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.
Ah right.
YOur reps look OK, but see what the others say, however don't miss the deadline for submission of reps.  They have 56 days to respond. Councils are under the same obligation to obey the law as the rest of us, so if they haven't made entry of reg number a requirement for obtaining a parking ticket in the Order for the car park, then they cannot enforce it by issuing a PCN.

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But you haven't yet received the Notice to Owner.

I have received the NTO, that's why i was querying if my response was suitable.
@ivrytwr1 can we see it please?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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I can't see any additional issues on the notice to owner, so I would send the representation as you've drafted it (you've covered all the key points). We always recommend sending representations online, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Post up the response when you get it and if they reject and reoffer the discount, please don't be tempted to pay without checking with us first.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Submitted and screenshot taken - top tip to screenshot, ty!