3. PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
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brutal_deluxe

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PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« on: October 25, 2024, 12:05:09 pm »
Council: Herefordshire Council
Alleged contravention: "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher"
Location: Broad Street, Hereford
Code: 06
Date: 21/10/2024
Time: 17:23
Observed from 17:18 to 17:23
Civil Enforcement Officer: 66
Penalty: £50, reduced 50% if paid no later than last period of 14 days beginning with the date PCN was served.

My reason:
App payment available so used app. Accessed app while walking.
Internet connection poor so app kept failing.
Decided to return to car to move it.
At least approx 7 minutes had elapsed, notice had been served.
No evidence that I had been using the app. Purely my word.

Local council operational guidance document say minimum 5 minutes observation time.
https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/downloads/file/3625/parking-enforcement-and-appeals-operational-guidance.pdf

Do I have a leg to stand on?

Thanks in advance!

BD

(FRONT) https://photos.app.goo.gl/CjyMxD7S1XR9dsaL6
(BACK) https://photos.app.goo.gl/i45DoEg5Twk9Pjvj9
GSV: https://maps.app.goo.gl/d4q47hH5HdvDN2Uv9
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 01:42:09 pm by brutal_deluxe »
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John U.K.

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2024, 12:26:18 pm »
For meaningful advice please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up copies of both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to the location.
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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2024, 12:31:38 pm »
Hi!

Thanks, I read the post and included all relevant info. I am trying to upload a 227KB file but the forum tells me the upload folder is full even though I am not uploading anything else.

Will keep trying

BD
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cp8759

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2024, 12:37:56 pm »
Quote from: brutal_deluxe on October 25, 2024, 12:31:38 pm
I read the post and included all relevant info.
@brutal_deluxe you obviously haven't as that post tells you that you can't upload attachments and it has very detailed instructions on how to share photos. If you have any difficulties following the instructions I'm happy to help, but I would ask that you try following the guide in the first instance.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2024, 12:44:39 pm »
Quote
you can't upload attachments

Says there is limited space but we got there in the end :D Shame you can't turn off the upload field!

Thanks :D
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 12:48:01 pm by brutal_deluxe »
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stamfordman

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2024, 01:28:03 pm »
Observed from 17:18 not 17:08.

Why did you walk away from the car without first paying?
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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2024, 01:40:22 pm »
Quote from: stamfordman on October 25, 2024, 01:28:03 pm
Observed from 17:18 not 17:08.

Why did you walk away from the car without first paying?

I was in a hurry
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stamfordman

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2024, 01:51:37 pm »
I can't see you have a challenge on issues with Ringgo given you left without trying to pay first. 

Someone will no doubt check the PCN for errors as we don't see many from Herefordshire. 

One point is the contravention: Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher. Here it should include virtual tickets (although not sure if this code has such amendment) but as there is also a machine I don't think that's a runner. A correct contravention is simply not paying.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2024, 01:53:37 pm by stamfordman »
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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2024, 01:55:12 pm »
Quote from: stamfordman on October 25, 2024, 01:51:37 pm
I can't see you have a challenge on issues with Ringgo given you left without trying to pay first. 

Someone will no doubt check the PCN for errors as we don't see many from Herefordshire. 

One point is the contravention: Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher. Here it should include virtual tickets (although not sure if this code has such amendment) but as there is also a machine I don't think that's a runner. A correct contravention is simply not paying.

Yeh I don't think I have a challenge. However, this is interesting.

I could argue the point that the alleged offence was irrelevant? I don't know.
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2024, 05:07:36 pm »
The contraventions grounds are wrong because display is not required, it's optional because paying by phone is permitted.

The mandatory warning seems to be missing on the rear of the PCN:

c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2024, 05:40:09 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on October 25, 2024, 05:07:36 pm
The contraventions grounds are wrong because display is not required, it's optional because paying by phone is permitted.

The mandatory warning seems to be missing on the rear of the PCN:

c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Thank you, now this is interesting also.

How can I present this in the form of an appeal? Where did you quote it from?
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cp8759

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2024, 12:25:48 pm »
Quote from: brutal_deluxe on October 25, 2024, 12:44:39 pm
Shame you can't turn off the upload field!
@brutal_deluxe  well if I could I would. Anyway we now have the problem that you've redacted the number plate, so we can't see what evidence the council has. As the guide (which you've supposedly read twice already) clearly explains, the number plate should not be redacted: the council knows it already and everyone can see it every time your car is on the road. Hiding it just makes it that much harder for us to help you.

The traffic order is The County of Herefordshire District Council (Hereford City Centre) Order 2017 and the relevant entry is on page 33 ("From 35.5m south of the southern kerbline of West Street southwards for 24.5m").

The obvious ground of appeal would be that if payment by phone is permitted then there would be nothing to display in any event, we have a few cases that have been won on this point and the most relevant seems to be Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024), but I'm reluctant to draft a representation without seeing the council photos because I wouldn't' want you to make a self-incriminating admission that you were parking in a parking bay if the council can't prove that.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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brutal_deluxe

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2024, 10:50:52 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 26, 2024, 12:25:48 pm
Quote from: brutal_deluxe on October 25, 2024, 12:44:39 pm
Shame you can't turn off the upload field!
@brutal_deluxe  well if I could I would. Anyway we now have the problem that you've redacted the number plate, so we can't see what evidence the council has. As the guide (which you've supposedly read twice already) clearly explains, the number plate should not be redacted: the council knows it already and everyone can see it every time your car is on the road. Hiding it just makes it that much harder for us to help you.

The traffic order is The County of Herefordshire District Council (Hereford City Centre) Order 2017 and the relevant entry is on page 33 ("From 35.5m south of the southern kerbline of West Street southwards for 24.5m").

The obvious ground of appeal would be that if payment by phone is permitted then there would be nothing to display in any event, we have a few cases that have been won on this point and the most relevant seems to be Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024), but I'm reluctant to draft a representation without seeing the council photos because I wouldn't' want you to make a self-incriminating admission that you were parking in a parking bay if the council can't prove that.

No worries! I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to disclosing any identifiable information anywhere on the internet, however since it seems to be a requirement I'll re-upload. The plate they recorded was correct.

I'll have a butchers at that previous case. I've only ever dealt with private PCN invoices so this is a whole new ballgame to me. What would you recommend re the photos?? Do I request them and would that automatically put the 50% discount on hold?

Thanks again

BD
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2024, 11:38:01 pm »
Are the photos not available to view on their website by quoting PCN Number and car registration ?

There is no legal requirement for them to put a PCN on hold if the recipient requests information.
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cp8759

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Re: PCN - Herefordshire council. 5 mins grace??!
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2024, 11:44:12 pm »
@brutal_deluxe once you've given us the plate we can look up the photos on the council website. I'm more than happy to draft a representation for you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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