3. PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: John U.K. on March 20, 2025, 10:09:40 am
Have you checked the council website for the status/history of the PCN?
No - I didn't know you could...(?)
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #16 on: »
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #17 on: »
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on March 20, 2025, 11:03:53 am
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
Ah OK - I thought the 56 day thing might provide a technicality to get my PCN quashed... So can Havering just let this hang as long as they want now?
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #19 on: »
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: MrChips on March 20, 2025, 11:30:43 am
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
Is there *no* limit, though?  I mean, if Havering were to go quiet and then get back to me in 10 years time, would that be OK in terms of the rules they presumably have to work to - even re box junction PCNs?
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 12:15:42 pm
Quote from: MrChips on March 20, 2025, 11:30:43 am
56 day limit doesn't apply to box junction PCNs.
Is there *no* limit, though?  I mean, if Havering were to go quiet and then get back to me in 10 years time, would that be OK in terms of the rules they presumably have to work to - even re box junction PCNs?

I think most adjudicators would regard over 3 months as unreasonable, almost all anything over six months.

The legal definition of reasonableness (and unreasonableness) is one of those elastic and somewhat subjective terma available to adjudicators: see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Provincial_Picture_Houses_Ltd_v_Wednesbury_Corporation

Another you are likely to meet is substantial compliance.



 
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #22 on: »
There is a statement on the London tribunals website that they generally regard over three months as unreasonable so that's a good benchmark.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process

See the bit under "The Enforcement Authority considers your representations".
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 02:18:50 pm by MrChips »
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #23 on: »
Unfortunately, not all follow it. But, I agree in principle.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 11:16:24 am
Quote from: Incandescent on March 20, 2025, 11:03:53 am
BTW there is no 56 day limit on them replying under the LLA & TfL Act 2003; that is only in the Traffic Management Act 2004 when they respond to reps against a Notice to Owner.
Ah OK - I thought the 56 day thing might provide a technicality to get my PCN quashed... So can Havering just let this hang as long as they want now?
Well, they have a duty as a public body to act fairly.
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #25 on: »
The relevant tribunal authority is Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998).

A more recent binding authority on the duty of fairness is Bank Mellat v Her Majesty's Treasury (No. 2) [2013] UKSC 39 at para 35:

35. The duty of fairness governing the exercise of a statutory power is a limitation on the discretion of the decision-maker which is implied into the statute. But the fact that the statute makes some provision for the procedure to be followed before or after the exercise of a statutory power does not of itself impliedly exclude either the duty of fairness in general or the duty of prior consultation in particular, where they would otherwise arise. As Byles J observed in Cooper v Board of Works for the Wandsworth District (1863) 14 CB(NS) 190, 194, “the justice of the common law will supply the omission of the legislature.” In Lloyd v McMahon 1987] 1 AC 625, 702-3, Lord Bridge of Harwich regarded it as

“well established that when a statute has conferred on any body the power to make decisions affecting individuals, the courts will not
only require the procedure prescribed by the statute to be followed, but will readily imply so much and no more to be introduced by way
of additional procedural safeguards as will ensure the attainment of fairness.”

Like Lord Bingham in R (West) v Parole Board [2005] 1 WLR 350 at para 29, I find it hard to envisage cases in which the maximum expressio unius exclusio alterius could suffice to exclude so basic a right as that of fairness
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 10:25:39 am
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
Surely, log on with your PCN and VRM details plus the webcode?
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on March 21, 2025, 10:15:39 am
Quote from: richythepom on March 20, 2025, 10:25:39 am
Just been back onto Havering's website - if there *is* a way to check status/history of my PCN, then they've done a bloody good job of hiding it!  I can't find any way of checking, I'm afraid...
Surely, log on with your PCN and VRM details plus the webcode?

I've tried that via the LBH website.  It recognises the VRM/PCN/Webcode info. but it doesn't give me the option to "check status / "check history" or anything similar; it only provides the option for me to pay.  I tentatively had a nose at that and it's still offering me the reduced rate, but offers nothing re the status of my representation etc...
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Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #28 on: »
The fact that the discount is on offer suggests a notice of rejection has recently been issued reoffering the discount, so I suspect you'll get it in the post in the next few days. The only other option is to call the council and ask for an update.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN - Havering - 31J - Station Rd./Branfill Rd.
« Reply #29 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on March 21, 2025, 11:53:24 am
The fact that the discount is on offer suggests a notice of rejection has recently been issued reoffering the discount, so I suspect you'll get it in the post in the next few days. The only other option is to call the council and ask for an update.
Thanks @cp8759 - I'll keep an eye out for if/when it arrives in the post and revert to the forum re next steps...
I did try to call the Council, incidentally; however, for this part of LBH's "service", EVERYTHING is automated (no actual people to talk to) unless you're at Court/Bailiff stage, in which case, it gives you different external numbers to call...
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