Author Topic: PCN / Haringey Council / 52(M) Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle  (Read 1710 times)

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Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

I bring a collateral challenge against this PCN, on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(8)(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

It follows that the penalty charge notice is invalid and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Don't worry about the tribunal stage, one of us will offer to act as your representative. This sort of technical appeal is really not suited for a DIY appeal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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London Tribunals link: -
http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/

Your PCN is issued under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. As far as I can see, there is no requirement for a PCN issued under that Act to outline the adjudication process at all. As far as I know, if an authority rejects representations against an LLA & TFL Act 2003 PCN, the procedure for appealing to the adjudicators will be included in that. The Secretary of State has the power to introduced regulations related to the issue and enforcement of PCNs under the Act but has never done so.

So you are of the opinion the PCN is valid based on the authority not being required to outline a process?

Draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Haringey,

I bring a collateral challenge against this PCN, on the ground that it does not comply with the mandatory requirement of section 4(8)(a)(v) of, and paragraph 5(2)(a) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003.

It follows that the penalty charge notice is invalid and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

Don't worry about the tribunal stage, one of us will offer to act as your representative. This sort of technical appeal is really not suited for a DIY appeal.

Thank you for this.  Shall I start the appeal immediately?  ON the appeal option on the Tribinal site it states: Make an appeal
You must challenge the penalty charge and receive a Notice of Rejection letter from the issuing authority before you appeal.

#so do i need to do that first?

Apologies for bumping this.  Just want to make sure i make the correct next step in time.

thank you

@swooph the draft starts with "Dear London Borough of Haringey", which is meant to be the clue that you need to send it to Haringey, I have no idea why you'd think of sending it to the tribunal?

The website to make representations is https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/ and don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation page.

If the council issues a notice of rejection, we can then look at whether you should appeal to the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hello all.  It had been a while since I followed cp's advice and heard nothing back so was about to jump back on here and find out what that meant, and then this morning, the following arrived - a rejection of representations.  I've attached it below.

Also included in the letter is a London Tribunals Notice of Appeal form (not embedded here).

If anyone has any advice on insight to the the options or steps from here I would be most grateful.

Thanks everyone and Happy Christmas



« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 11:22:38 pm by cp8759 »
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That NOR demonstrates a total failure to consider the technical ground.  "Carefully considered"!

I am happy to take this one on at the Tribunal for free. Please PM me if you want to accept my offer and we can start the ball rolling.

Below is one of my cases on this exact point:



Case Details
Case reference 2230075597
Appellant
Authority London Borough of Lambeth
VRM
PCN Details
PCN
Contravention date 02 Oct 2022
Contravention time 11:21:00
Contravention location Kennington Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane
Referral date
Decision Date 23 Feb 2023
Adjudicator Gerald Styles
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons
The hearing appointed for 23 February was in a sense "hybrid" as the Council's representative Mr Charles presented the Council case by telephone on speaker whereas Mr  the appellant accompanied by his representative Mr Morgan were face to face with the Adjudicator.
The appellant representations against the enforcement notice were handwritten and in substance read "You have failed to engage the substance of my initial challenge. The camera has been ruled upon by Mr Carl Teper to have no Home Office Type Approval and costs have been awarded. Evidence is inadmissible please do not waste mine and your time or that of a Tribunal. The PM has been clear a fine should not be issued for instances of bus lane on first time. Your signage was unclear and the rules only recently changed for motorbikes. This was unclear. Mr Stanton Dunne's decision in Davy Duthiew v. London Borough of Ealing No 2220486482 corroborates all previous decisions made by several senior adjudicators concerning the issue of Home Office Type Approval."

Mr  addressed me during the hearing regarding the adequacy of the Council's response to those representations that is to say its notice of rejection dated 29 December 2022. In my view that notice of rejection fairly summarised information relevant to signage. Importantly in my view in respect of admissibility and approval of equipment it however effectively said nothing.

Mr Charles correctly pointed out the letter began by stating "We have carefully considered what you say but have decided not cancel your Penalty Charge Notice". There is also a passage in the notice of rejection about the motorist's comments being noted but not warranting cancellation. "Umbrella" phrases, stock phrase examples, do not necessarily invalidate a notice of rejection but there is a need for something else as well to show particular representations have actually been considered, not just repetition of stock phrases.

Adjudicators in this tribunal frequently and correctly comment that notices of rejection need not cover each and every point made in representations. What is required is something showing that at least major representations amongst what a motorist has written have been duly considered. Length in dealing with major aspects of representations may not be required. Sufficiency in this context is generally viewed by Adjudicators as a matter of fact and degree.

The notice of rejection in this case is in my decision so incomplete a response to readily identified major issues raised that it does not illustrate or correspond in a demonstrable way with the Council's legal duty to consider representations received.


I have decided to allow the appeal on that sole point.

I am making no findings in relation to primary facts in this case or for that matter ruling on equipment used by the Council in connection with it.

Authority Response
« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 01:21:30 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

PM sent with offer to represent.  Further, no "mitigation" was offered!  Copy and paste job.

Game on, I believe.  Molon lave, Haringey.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2023, 12:23:53 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

No evidence as of yet from them.

To simplify:  they cannot serve a charge certificate 28 days from the date of the notice.

Even if they send their evidence in late, I may as well continue as there is no value in an adjournment.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 08:50:32 pm by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
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Still no evidence.  Hearing is tomorrow. I do not wish to miss yet another Penederel's Oak appointment. Already missed two this week.  ;)
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Columbo:  "The good news, sir, is that you won your case.  The bad news, sir, is that your representative will not be attending Penderel's Oak!"  (For the time being as a costs application is in the making in view of their total failure to consider and not  even having the courtesy to issue a DNC!)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2024, 10:28:18 am by Hippocrates »
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
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Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

Reasons   
This appeal is listed for personal hearing later today.

The hearing will not now take place the council not providing its evidence there thus being no case for the appellant to answer.

The appeal is allowed.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Like Like x 1 View List