3. PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
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PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
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Hi everyone,

I received a PCN for stopped on a restricted bus stop which obviously I didn't realised at the time. It was 8.28am and the traffic was busy, I was doing a school run with my daughter and my wife in the car. What happened was a few junctions back, a car behind me on the right lane drove and scratched the back of my car before turning right and drove off. I was feeling desperate and while trying to rethink what had happened and tried to remember its number plate. While I didn't want to stop in the middle of the road to check for the damage of my car, the bus driver behind me keep flashing its light and so without thinking I drove into the bus stop and got off the car to quickly check the car for about 10 seconds. Jumped back on the car and just before I was about to drive away, then the bus driver stopped next to me explaining he basically saw and have captured everything with the bus camera, telling me to get his bus number & number plate and contact TFL for evidence.



Here is a photo from the video that the bus driver stopped and having a conversation with next to me


Do I have any chances to fight for this? Many thanks in advance for all your time & professional knowledge
« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 09:30:02 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #1 on: »
Well, the first thing you need to do is make a subject access request for the bus video footage.

The number plate of the bus that stopped next to you is LJ61 CAA and https://bustimes.org/vehicles/711 says that bus is on route 144, according to https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/who-runs-your-bus route 144 is operated by Arriva London North Ltd and according to https://ico.org.uk/ESDWebPages/Entry/Z5592665 the DPO is sheltst@arriva.co.uk

Therefore you should email sheltst@arriva.co.uk right away (hurry up as the footage is kept for a limited time only):

Dear Arriva London North Ltd,

On 17 October 2023 I was involved in a road traffic collision just before 8:28 am, I pulled over to check for damage to my car and a TFL bus pulled over next to me, the number plate of that bus is LJ61 CAA and my number plate is J44 MNY.

The bus driver told me that he had witnessed the accident, he had caught everything on the bus CCTV and I should contact TFL for a copy of the footage. This bus appears to run route 144, and TFL's website tells me that route 144 is operated by Arriva London North Ltd and that I should contact you directly for a copy of the footage.

Would you therefore please provide a copy of the footage showing this collision, I attach a copy of my driving licence and V5C as proof of identity.

Yours faithfully,

While we wait for the footage, please tell us everything you can about the collision.

This is the council video:

« Last Edit: November 04, 2023, 09:57:11 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you so much. Email sent and have also bcc to you.

It was at this junction, I was on the middle lane on Green lanes going north to High road, the other car was on the right lane turning right to Westbury Avenue. As the traffic light changed, a police car at the opposite junction (High road) suddenly turned on the siran and heading south to Green lanes. As I was about the exit the yellow box junction, this car while tried to avoid the police car had hit the right side of the back of my car before turned into Westbury Avenue and left.



The 144 bus must have been behind me and have seen what had happened. 
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #3 on: »
TSRGD Shedule 7, part 6, para 4(2)(b) should apply
"a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;"

ie, another vehicle crashed into you, you were worried about the amount of damage or possible risk if you continued driving so pulled into a clear area.... don't use words like scratch which minimise even though it may have turned out to only be a scratch, as anyone who has been in a minor shunt will know, the sound effects can be horrendous
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #4 on: »

'without thinking drove into a bus stop'?

IMO, driving into it knowingly strengthens whatever case you may have(i.e. other than your account we have no idea what transpired with the driver).

I'm therefore starting with the premis that you knowingly stopped at a bus stop.

As I understand it, facts in the order they occurred and with the knowledge you had at the time i.e. not acquired later are:

Your vehicle was hit by a car in the rear;
A bus which was in the vicinity subsequently flashed you repeatedly which you interpreted as meaning that they were trying to bring something to your attention;
You therefore pulled into the bus stop, where it was reasonable to assume the bus would be stopping in order to check with the driver;
You checked the rear of your vehicle and waited for the bus which the pulled alongside at which point **** the driver told you *****;
And then you drove off.

IMO, there's no point drilling into the detail of the collision i.e. where, how etc, the issue is what you reasonably inferred from the driver's signals and why you stopped in the bus stop area.
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on November 05, 2023, 12:29:10 pm
IMO, there's no point drilling into the detail of the collision i.e. where, how etc, the issue is what you reasonably inferred from the driver's signals and why you stopped in the bus stop area.
I think the details of the collision are important. Looking at the council video without context, it just looks like an unjustified stop in a bus stop, and the bus that pulls up alongside could be stopping to remonstrate about the car stopping in a bus stop.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 05, 2023, 12:47:38 pm
I think the details of the collision are important. Looking at the council video without context, it just looks like an unjustified stop in a bus stop, and the bus that pulls up alongside could be stopping to remonstrate about the car stopping in a bus stop.

Fully agree as it is the collision that is the root cause of it all.
To be fair, HCA's synopsis includes it and is more or less what I would be using as bare bones for a challenge.
Flesh will be needed such as the exemption and the info the bus driver gave re CCTV

OP, keep an eye on timing, the actual footage would be good but do not miss deadlines waiting for it.
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #7 on: »

The point about the collision is that according to the OP the bus driver is probably more au fait with these details than them. I presented my input in the order that it would have become known to the OP i.e. I don't want them to mix what they knew prior to stopping with what they were informed after they stopped and IMO these must be kept separate. 

They stopped not just because they'd been a collision but because the bus driver's indications gave them a legitimate reason to believe that they had important - and otherwise unknown to the OP - information regarding it.

And where would you stop other than in a bus stop in order to act upon the warning from the bus driver?

The fine detail of the collision is secondary e.g. did they turn left or right, blue car, black car or whatever etc. and although sufficient needs to be included should not swamp the argument regarding the contravention.
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #8 on: »
Thank you everyone for the input. All very valid, especially HCA for pointing out the very important reason why I pulled into the bus stop which was because of the constant flashing of the front light by the bus driver behind.

I will post up a draft soon that follow HCA's suggestion while waiting for the CCTV footage.
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #9 on: »
Just remember:  the more salient representations you make, the more they have to consider.  This is a statutory duty.  Personally, I would include as much as relevant.  It is generally agreed on both forums (fora?) that many council officers are not that fully-conversant with the law(s)!
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Hippocrates on November 06, 2023, 11:26:43 am
Just remember:  the more salient representations you make, the more they have to consider.  This is a statutory duty.  Personally, I would include as much as relevant.  It is generally agreed on both forums (fora?) that many council officers are not that fully-conversant with the law(s)!
I sometimes think it is "all", not "many" !
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: Boxxer on November 05, 2023, 05:19:36 pm
Thank you everyone for the input. All very valid, especially HCA for pointing out the very important reason why I pulled into the bus stop which was because of the constant flashing of the front light by the bus driver behind.

I will post up a draft soon that follow HCA's suggestion while waiting for the CCTV footage.

Just be aware.
Pulling into the bus stop for reasons beyond your control relate to the collision.
There is a risk in continuing driving without checking and TBH, for some people that panic, there is a risk in continuing to drive.
A bus driver flashing his lights builds the story but alone is a stretch to mean you had to stop in the bus stop.
The first leads directly to a statutory exemption, the second may not.

Flashing can mean anything from you've peed the driver off to something may be wrong with the car and you really ought to pull over to check
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on November 06, 2023, 11:59:09 am
Quote from: Hippocrates on November 06, 2023, 11:26:43 am
Just remember:  the more salient representations you make, the more they have to consider.  This is a statutory duty.  Personally, I would include as much as relevant.  It is generally agreed on both forums (fora?) that many council officers are not that fully-conversant with the law(s)!
I sometimes think it is "all", not "many" !

How does one apply to be a Hero Member? 8)
Logged
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #13 on: »
Received a reply from Arriva this morning saying they will forward the request to their UK Bus Division

Quote
As this request involved one of our buses I have forward your request on to the team within our UK Bus Division for their review and processing, at Arriva Group we do not generally process customer data and as such do not have access to the systems required, therefore your request will be handled by colleagues within our UK Bus division. They will soon reach out to acknowledge your request.

And here is my first draft

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to appeal my penalty charge, and I will explain the events in the order they occurred before this offence so you can understand how and why it happened.

I was driving from Green Lanes toward High Road when, at the junction outside Turnpike Lane station, a police car with sirens on approached from the opposite direction. A vehicle behind me crashed into the right rear of my car and then turned right into Westbury Avenue before driving off.

As the traffic was very busy, I was trying to recall what had happened and remember the vehicle's number plate. Subsequently a bus behind me repeatedly flashed its front lights, which I believed was the bus driver trying to get my attention.

I pulled into the bus stop, where it made sense to assume the bus would stop and to let ongoing traffic pass before checking with the driver. After inspecting the rear of my vehicle, I waited for the bus. When it pulled alongside, the driver explained that he had witnessed the collision and had captured everything on the bus's CCTV. He advised me to contact TFL for a copy of the footage. After our conversation, I continued driving."

I hope that, after explaining the sequence of events that occurred, you can understand the intention behind this offence.

What do you guys think?
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Re: PCN - Haringey Council - 47(J): Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand
« Reply #14 on: »
Stress the impact, that you were trying to get your wits, concerned with damage and to top it all, a bus driver was flashing you so you felt forced to pull over as soon as possible, which happened to be the bus stop
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