Author Topic: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day  (Read 1262 times)

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Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #15 on: »
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

OP, there is a significant conflict here between the signs.

The 'parking' sign has been amended to reflect AFC's success and purports to add controls on 'event days' on Saturdays '1-8.30pm', but unfortunately the lower sign states that there is a pre-existing 'order prohibiting waiting by goods vehicles[and buses] from [Mon-Sun] '6.30pm - M'night'.

They may not overlap, but do.

I suggest looking at the(or both) traffic orders.

And post a GSV location, we need to look at how widespread these 'no waiting' signs are.


Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #16 on: »
I don’t think the sign at the location is the problem
The problem is that they are saying there was an event on the day parked  there
But there must be a sign to warn motorists that an event is on but there was no sign of an event in G1 they said the sign was in E1
I appealed and it was rejected
So my next step is to do representation

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #17 on: »

I don’t think the sign at the location is the problem

But IMO it is. A sign may only reflect the provisions in a traffic order and in this case you may not have a waiting restriction and a parking place extant on the same length of road as here. Which brings the traffic orders into the equation, which means we need to know where in Garratt Lane you were parked.

A 'goods vehicle' could fit wholly within the parking place especially here where there isn't a weight limit attached to the restriction.

So, can you post a GSV of the location pl.

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #18 on: »
This is the google street view of where I parked
I parked exactly where that bike is parked under the road sign. And the picture of the road sign was also sent with the PCN
But please how do I write a representation

https://maps.apple.com/?address=London,%20SW17%200NN,%20England&auid=12106244587369337672&ll=51.432868,-0.182023&lsp=6489&q=SW17%200NN&_mvs=CjYJwxJ5M263SUARsARO5pNNx78ZAACSlKDZTEAh6Z6Cbk3wakApktwsMyfPC8AxAAAAAAAAAAASJgoQODM5IEdhcnJhdHQgTGFuZRIKV2FuZHN3b3J0aBoGTG9uZG9u
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 08:48:24 pm by Choice4 »

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #19 on: »
Please what evidence do I need to provide for representation I only have 28 days to do it
The reason I am thinking of writing are
1. The ticket issuer didn’t attach a reason why I was given a ticket
2. It was when I appealed I was told a football match was on and it was an event day
3.There was no notice about the match at the beginning of zone G1 but I was told there was a notice at the beginning of E1
4. I didn’t approach the road from E1 so i didn’t see the notice
5. I have a photo of previous notice they had kept at the beginning of G1 on match days and it looks they have stopped putting the notice and moved it to another location

Are these reasons enough for a representation or should I add something else

Thanks

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #20 on: »
OP, I won a similar (but different) case here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-on-an-event-day-but-no-sign-it-was-an-event-day/

I won it because the Council website reported the wrong dates as event days. The council replied that the dates on the website were just an example and not to be relied on, but the adjudicator disagreed and cancelled my PCN.

I also represented that the sign they had put up was outside Earlsfield train station, where cars cannot park; it was a dozen lines of text, it was impossible to read it without stopping, and, if every driver did that, it would be total chaos. The adjudicator remained completely silent on this point.

As of now, their website still has the same dates (Oct 2023). You might try that defense (case reference 2240033072 https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1606505,2992486,60,APPEAL&cs=3-BwrpHTBMXr3-4KGuHeNFK2uoRhj3W5chyVL07dMSVN5jHRb15KGP924ubbMcPTDJs3Nf7UdjEILtEhcK65Dkw ) but I suspect the council will say that, since the date on their website is so many months in the past, then it is clear it was just an example.

Their website says there should still be signs on G1 https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/
If you can prove there weren't, I believe you should have a stronger case.

FWIW I think it should be compulsory for councils to mention the exact days on their website, and not just in some hard-to-read signs far away from the actual parking locations. It would cost them nothing. But then cash-strapped councils wouldn't  catch out as many motorists, would they?

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #21 on: »
Wow thank you so much for this reply

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #22 on: »
Don't just rely on that case, the merits of which would be in the minority among adjudicators IMO.

Look at the website; look at the G1 entry sign locations - at least one is wrong, massively so; look at Moreton House; look at the style of sign outside, it's NOT even the same format as per the website(in fact it's two signs one of which has been photographed facing the wrong way; get your own photos.

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #23 on: »
Please can you post a picture of the signs you are referring to

Thanks a lot

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #24 on: »
GSV, May 2023; Moreton House (opp junction of Garratt Lane with Wimbledon Road); CPZ sign immediately outside with 'event day' board beneath facing towards traffic leaving G1.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/QbQNCHbj4FstPRRC6?g_st=ic

The ad hoc sign on the post as you enter G1 is there, but the glaring issues to me are:

The CPZ sign is not of the form given in the website or in the council's evidence to the tribunal in the cited case (something which the appellant in that case didn't spot!);
The lower sign is not firmly attached and can reverse as shown in GSV.

And the so-called parking place is covered by a waiting restriction for 'goods vehicles' of any weight for part of its operational time which cannot be.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2024, 03:38:15 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #25 on: »
I took pictures on that day and there was no sign about the date of the event at that junction you mentioned they used to ah e it there in the
Past but they stopped putting it there

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #26 on: »
OP, it's not clear to me where exactly you parked. You posted an apple maps link to a street (Garratt lane) which doesn't seem to have any parking?

As a starting point:

understand where exactly you parked
check on the council website what area it corresponds to
check if there was a sign where the council said there should have been https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking/parking-zones/afc-wimbledon-stadium-event-day-restrictions/

For example, the council website states that the signs for G1 are located at:

G1 St. Martin’s Way/Maskell Road
G1 Garratt Lane/Summerstown
G1 Wimbledon Road/Blackshaw Road

If there was no sign, you can challenge the PCN on that basis. But you need proof. You can say that, according to the council website, you were expecting a sign at location X, no such sign was there, so the only logical conclusion was it was NOT an event day.

Be sure to take a screenshot or a video of the council website with some kind of timestamp, in case those esteemed gentlemen change it later!

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #27 on: »
I was parked at G1 garratt lane/ summertown
There was no notice there and when I appealed my PCN they replied to say the notice was at the beginning of E1
Let me find their reply

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #28 on: »

Re: PCN from Wandswoth council on a football day
« Reply #29 on: »
In the letter they said
“Whilst you have provided a photograph of a zone entry without event information, this sign is within the event zone and therefore doesn’t bear the even zone information on Garrat lane, only E1 signage when entering the zone from the south has event day restrictions “
Given the above I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued