3. PCN for Motorhome parking
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PCN for Motorhome parking
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Our Motorhome was parked in a council car park and got a PCN. The sign (see photo) was to me very ambiguous as it suggested that overnight sleeping in Motorhomes or caravans was not allowed and not that Motorhomes were banned from the car park. Our Motorhome is small and easily fitted into a normal car space (see photo).
The PCN was issued under Code 91 ‘parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle’.


The car park is in England but my wife and I live in Scotland.
Appreciate any thoughts on the legitimacy of this as it seems harsh to us and others as there were several other Motorhomes parked up there.

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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #1 on: »
I rather think the clue is in the punctuation.
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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: spaceman on July 29, 2023, 12:20:21 pm
I rather think the clue is in the punctuation.

Yes, if the sign read " Red, Green and Blue cars not allowed in this car park" you wouldn't assume that only cars that were both red and blue were not welcome.
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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #3 on: »
Please give us the number plate, and post the rear of the PCN.

Guidance on posting images is here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

In the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places order.

GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/cPT7iDZvSmkvMv669

How did you pay to park?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 09:18:14 pm by cp8759 »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #4 on: »
Registration number: SN64BEU
I used pay to park app.


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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #5 on: »
Council photos don't show any signage at all:













I suspected you had paid on the app, this means there would have been no need to go to the main terms and condition board next to the pay and display machine.

Did you get the location code from within the app, or from one of these signs?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #6 on: »
The location came up on the app and as you say I didn’t see the t&c on the board until after I got the ticket when I went to find out what the problem was.
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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #7 on: »
This is a very simple case, draft reps:

Dear City of York Council,

I challenge liability for PCN YC9356319A on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur, owing to inadequate signage. When I parked my vehicle I used the app to pay, and I did not see any signage indicating restrictions on motorhomes.

I note that the signs dotted around the car park which carry the location code, such as this one



do not carry any information about restrictions on motorhomes. When I paid on the app, no warning message or other indication was given that my vehicle was not permitted.

Therefore owing to inadequate signage, the contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,


Pop this into a PDF and upload it to the council website as an attachment, don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #8 on: »
Which rather implies that all conditions of parking must be conveyed by a PbP service. Unfortunately there is no regulatory requirement for this and IMO this argument would not succeed at adjudication.

Furthermore, as the OP knows, they did see and read the noticeboard placed prominently at the car park entrance:

Our Motorhome was parked in a council car park and got a PCN. The sign (see photo) was to me very ambiguous as it suggested that overnight sleeping in Motorhomes or caravans was not allowed and not that Motorhomes were banned from the car park..
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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #9 on: »
The OP went on to clarify in reply#6

Quote
The location came up on the app and as you say I didn’t see the t&c on the board until after I got the ticket when I went to find out what the problem was.
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Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Ugly duckling on July 30, 2023, 05:13:15 pm
Which rather implies that all conditions of parking must be conveyed by a PbP service.
Not at all, they should simply have a sign visible from where the vehicle was parked that says "no motorhomes in this car park" and that would suffice.

There are no national regulations about signage in car parks, so it's down to the adjudicator to decide if the signs are adequate, and my firm view is that most adjudicators would say that if the motorist was able to pay to park and there was no signage indicating they shouldn't, then no contravention is made out.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #11 on: »
Here is The York (Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2013, this car park permits:

Camper Van not exceeding 3050 kilograms gross weight and not exceeding 2.0m in height

Is your vehicle within these limits?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #12 on: »
@Simon4611 I've cleaned up the thread and removed the comments from ex-members.

I still think you have a viable appeal and would be happy to represent you at the tribunal, if you're still interested in pursuing this.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN for Motorhome parking
« Reply #13 on: »
For future reference here is the Central Area Zone map, however it seems @Simon4611 has lost interest.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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