Author Topic: PCN for illegal left turn  (Read 408 times)

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ashirusnw

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PCN for illegal left turn
« on: October 11, 2023, 03:29:35 pm »
Hi I think I'm caught bang to rights here but hoping one of you pros can spot a flaw in the PCN!

And here's the PCN:







Street view of the turning: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DyxQun1ikcZeXQJq8

Many thanks
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 06:56:04 pm by cp8759 »

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Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2023, 07:10:19 pm »
They may also have the video available on their website, so follow the instructions to view evidence. Download it and post it here if there is. However from what you say, you would seem ot be bang-to-rights.

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2023, 07:50:45 pm »

Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2023, 11:12:48 pm »
The video shows you totally bang-to-rights, I can't see anything that might contradict this opinion. Two clear 'No Left Turn' signs with nothing in the way of them to prevent you seeing them.

Of course there may be a fatal error of content in the PCN or the traffic order may be out-of-date. If there is something, you'd inevitably have to take them to London Tribunals for an unbiased decision. This means the discount option wouuld be lost.

cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2023, 06:57:10 pm »
@ashirusnw please un-bin the video so that I can take a look, and also give us the PCN number and number plate.

One obvious issue to investigate is the exact boundary of the GLA road with the borough road, if the sign is the wrong side of the boundary then arguably the council cannot enforce without TFL's prior written consent, so I will check the designation orders.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 07:03:37 pm by cp8759 »
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2023, 11:17:51 pm »
unbinned thanks so much

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2023, 06:49:36 pm »
Interestingy this local news article from 2017 shows that people have always been tripped up by this junction https://www.times-series.co.uk/news/15676382.barnet-council-earns-17m-at-tilling-road-junction-over-one-year/

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2023, 07:04:55 pm »
And apparently has always been cash cow for the council probably due to the amount of signs and because it's so soon after coming off the busy A406.

See e.g. https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/cctv-traffic-enforcement/traffic-hotspot-examples (bottom of page)

cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2023, 09:44:08 pm »
Have you made a representation, and if so have you received a rejection?

It looks like the discount has been extended?
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2023, 10:24:59 pm »
no I have not yet made a representation. the discount might have been extended because I tried to pay this just before the deadline but made an error with the payment which I reported, so it's not paid but perhaps in limbo pending their reply about the payment issue. I believe I can still make representations

cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2023, 06:34:09 pm »
If you want to carry on you need to make a representation in order to protect your position. I suggest you post a draft on here in the first instance, it doesn't have to be particularly compelling as its main purpose is to buy time. On the other hand we want to be reasonably conciliatory as we want to make sure the discount is extended further by the rejection letter.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2023, 12:35:32 pm »
So I sat down this morning to submit a representation and found the penalty had jumped up today to 100%/130 shame I didn't submit last night  >:(

Regardless I have made a submission explaining the payment error and that I was waiting for a reply to that, and then the following quasi-appeal:

Quote
This junction on Tilling Road is just after an exit from the very busy A406 and the frequently-busy ramp and the "no left turn" is one of at least 12 signs that a motorist has to read when entering this extremely short section of road, see attached Google Street View photo.

This particular turning restricted is noted by Barnet to often tripped-up motorists see https://www.barnet.gov.uk/parking/parking-and-traffic-enforcement/cctv-traffic-enforcement/traffic-hotspot-examples at the bottom of page where Barnet Council write "Currently far too many drivers are attempting a banned left turn from Tilling Road into Brentfield Gardens, raising the risk of serious accident. We want to ensure the road here is safer for cars, for pedestrians and for the residents of Brentfield Gardens." It has previously been reported in the press that this junction and prohibited turn nets the council a large percentage of its total PCN penelty revenue.

I appreciate that the sign may neverltheless be legal, however please use your discretion to treat this as an appeal and cancel this PCN, or otherwise, if rejected, please offer me the discounted rate given that I intended and tried to pay the PCN as outlined above.

Let's see ...!

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2023, 12:41:20 pm »
One obvious issue to investigate is the exact boundary of the GLA road with the borough road, if the sign is the wrong side of the boundary then arguably the council cannot enforce without TFL's prior written consent, so I will check the designation orders.

You're an absolute genius for thinking of this possible way out, but it seems unlikely given that this prohibited turn at this particular junction has had numerous failed appeals at Tribunal and apparently is a cash-cow for Barnet!

Is this https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/1257/schedule/made the designation order you're referring to? It doesn't list Tilling Road unfortunately and in general appears to cover only the sections of Borough Road that actually cross a GLA road whereas here, Tilling Road is a few 10s of yards off a ramp serving the A41/A406 ...

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2023, 12:43:05 pm »
(I couldn't find any info on the exact boundaries of the A41/A406 in terms of who owns what land)

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2023, 12:54:29 pm »
Atually, I found this this tool https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5129c766255941d3be16a6828faa8f18 which seems to show that TfL owns the freehold for Tilling Road and in fact part of Brentfield Gardens, which is odd as Barnet enforce parking on BrentField Gardens too.

Would this info help me?

Screenshot: