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Yes, it's totally barmy, but that doesn't get the PCN cancelled, unfortunately.  The council won't give way, so you either pay-up, or take them to London Tribunals where it would be a gamble. Councils are making millions on the back of LTNs, and until the Government take the punch bowl away, will continue doing so.

I cannot agree with Hippo the sign is a regulatory one and means no motor vehicles there is then an except buses plate so what is allowed or not is clear. But the council only evidence a sign facing away from you and that can't count. They may have pictures facing the right way but make them prove it

I cannot agree with Hippo the sign is a regulatory one and means no motor vehicles there is then an except buses plate so what is allowed or not is clear.

And >

Loads of cases allowed

Is disingenuous as far more cases were refused when the point was raised loads of times for another Croydon location.

The OP's photo shows there is no road closure at the end of Holmesdale Road so this needs investigating since the Notice indicates:-

(a) To introduce a permanent closure to all motor vehicles (with the exception of the emergency services) at the common boundary of Nos. 236 and 238 Holmesdale Road, adjacent to its junction with the south-western kerb-line of Park Road, marked by lockable bollards.

The signage in the video is in the correct location:-

(iii) Holmesdale Road opposite the south-western flank wall of No. 371 (closure point opposite the flank wall).

It's an Experimental Order which possibly expired last Friday so I wonder if this little scheme is ongoing. In other words if the traffic management reason for the restriction has lapsed why is enforcement continuing?

Hippo's point on the suffix is valid with a proviso. There is a supplement to the PCN Codes notes which states "Suffix ‘j’ identifies a contravention that can be used on highways other than red routes using CCTV. The suffix itself is not required on a PCN". Perhaps this provides the Council with wriggle room.

Mike

Links to photos and videos below:

PCN Cover Page

Council Photo 1

Council Photo 2

Council Video Footage

Signage

Warning Signage at Entrance to Road

Hopefully this is everything that is needed to see if there are any flaws. If anyone can spot any grounds for reps, please advise.


My Own POV (not that it will count for much in this appeals process):

I appreciate that I approached the regulatory signs and continued driving therefore my fault.

However, my query is: aren't prohibited zones typically a whole road or at least a significant section of road, as opposed to a small red box (dimensions: approx 1m x width of road) which you can approach from both ends of the road but cannot cross/enter?

Given that the regulatory prohibition signs are roughly 60% of the way down this stretch of road, one is not expecting to drive down here and suddenly reach a threshold (red box) that one is not permitted to cross. Would drivers who were unfamiliar with the CHN but saw the signs be expected to respond by stopping and performing a 3 point turn in the middle of the road (even more so during busy times)?

they would have missed a clear advance warning sign as a well as a dead end sign well before the illuminated prohibition signs --- really going to struggle with this at the tribunal

IF there are technical faults with the wording (or other technical faults) then you should continue to an appeal otherwise if discount is still available (?) then that may be the best option

I can see others have pointed out technical issues already

OP-----

The video shows, you are not leaving a restricted area but entering one at 371 Holmedale Road. The signpost has restrictions on both sides because it is an entry/egress prohibition.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Ergo I doubt you entered the restriction at Oliver Grove because you are heading in the direction of Oliver Grove.

However Oliver Grove was blocked off:-

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,75y,246.33h,70.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

But in your photo of the signage it isn't! That's why you were not given a 2nd PCN coming back through the signage. The Order spcifies entry and egress prohibitions. You exited via Oliver Grove (no bollards or planters).

So the signage doesn't indicate the entry to a "zone" and the traffic management reasons given in the Order are defunct i.e.the “Croydon Healthy Neighbourhood”.

You have at least 3 grounds for an appeal:-

1) No advance warning signs as noted by hca;

2) No protected zone--the prohibition signage has no purpose if the traffic management reasons of the Order have lapsed;

3) The suffix issue which renders the PCN null and void.


Mike

Hi Neil,

The map:-

https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/Holmesdale-Road-Area-CHN-map.pdf

Which clearly demonstrates there is no requirement for the prohibition sign the OP went through because its slap bang in the middle of this LTN or whatever they wish to call it.

She would have gone through the access point at the junction of Park Road and Holmesdale Road and that's where the signage prohibits entry (according to the map). I cannot recall a single LTN where there is a camera placed within the "zone" rather than at an access or egress point. I would contend that "Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle" can only occur at an entry point.

Mike

The Gazette notice of what appears to be the relevant Order.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4166090

Maybe I'm dumb (probably) but I can't see Oliver Road mentioned?
It's worth asking for the full traffic order at some point.

@Neil B You're definitely not dumb, I clearly am for ending up with two PCNs, a week apart on the same road, albeit in different locations 

Yes I agree, the PCN Location refers to Oliver Grove, yet the regulatory signs are not situated at/on/near Oliver Grove.

How do I request the full traffic order? Is there a particular department I would need to contact within the council?

I suspect your other PCN was for Upper Grove? -- which IS mentioned.

Yes, you are correct, my other PCN, for which I will create a separate thread, gives the Location as Holmesdale Road junction of Upper Grove