Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hi All

I received a PCN from Croydon: 52J Failing to comply with a Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle at Holmesdale Road junction of Oliver Grove.

PCN image

Date of alleged incident: 6th March 2024
Date of Notice: 14th March 2024

However this only came through the door on 20th March so doesn't leave me much time to appeal within the 14 days to preserve the discounted rate.

In all honesty, I was being given directions by a friend and genuinely do not recall seeing any kind of sign. Naturally, I don't plan to use this as grounds for appeal, as clearly that wouldn't wash!

I just wondered if anyone knows of any grounds upon which I could appeal particularly as I think we went down the same road the following week, so I am fairly certain I will be receiving another PCN in the next week!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The video shows you passing a sign from the other side, so we really need to see whether the signs in the video are also there for traffic in the other direction.  GSV is too out-of-date to show the signs, so you need to do some legwork and take photos of the back of the signs shown in the video. If none, then the offence did not occur.

Thank you @Incandescent.

Is there a way for me to view the council's video as I'm not certain about which part of the road the letter refers to?

I visited Holmesdale Road today and got an impression of where I think this took place (based on the proximity to Oliver Grove and the double yellow lines in the image). However, I will be going again tomorrow, as my friend disagrees as to where he thinks this occurred. Plus the second dreaded PCN arrived today (albeit on another part of Holmesdale Road) so I need to take more photos!

For now, I won't post all the photos I took, in case I'm incorrect about where this took place... but if it did occur where I think it did, then this photo (View From Other Side) shows the signage on the other side (as the double yellow lines appear to match the photo from the council). So, on that basis, I can't argue that the signage wasn't visible.

However, are there any grounds for me to make reps? Below are my initial thoughts - would any of these be worth trying?:

1) I don't understand how this Healthy Neighbourhood works. Essentially you can enter the road from both ends, but have to stop short of the 'painted red box' in the above photo. So in order to not contravene the HN, you would have to perform a turn in the road. Is that safe/legit?

2) The location is stated as Holmesdale Road junction Oliver Grove by Oliver Grove but the actual 'red box' threshold is at least 40 yards away from the junction with Oliver Grove, i.e. firmly located on Holmesdale Road. Is the location description accurate enough for a PCN?

3) As you say, the council's photo/video doesn't show the signage that I should have seen? It only shows me crossing the boundary with the signs facing the other way. Is it a given that there were signs showing the restriction in the other direction, on that particular day and time? Do they not need to present evidence that shows the signage I would/should have seen?

Will post more photos once I have visited again tomorrow as I don't want to confuse things.

In the meantime, I would be grateful for any help advice as I have until Wednesday to make reps.

Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all they're interested in is the money.

Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication, it's the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a double-or-quits gamble, basically.

Library images are accepted unless it's really clear that they are out of date etc / very old which won't be the case here

Of course council can mess up evidence occasionally though

Quote from: Incandescent on March 23, 2024, 12:28:15 am

Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all they're interested in is the money.

Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication, it's the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a double-or-quits gamble, basically.

Library images are accepted unless it's really clear that they are out of date etc / very old which won't be the case here

Of course council can mess up evidence occasionally though

Thank you @taffer87. In that case it is probably not worth the gamble on those grounds.

Are you the same person who commented on the Holmesdale Road PCN on PPP a month ago?

PPP 52J Holmesdale Road Park Road

I have just received a PCN for that stretch of road so need to deal with that one next 

Am I correct that the 'No Through Road except cycles' signs don't necessarily indicate a prohibition;

They're warning signs not regulatory signs, just as the flying motorcycle on blue background is a warning.

The regulatory sign in your case is not in view, but its other half is. The council will have library evidence to the effect that you passed a regulatory 'flying motorbike' so IMO don't risk £65 on such a flimsy argument.

Some people are happy to go to the council site to look at the video, I do not do that it needs be posted on here and without it it is impossible to say if there are any arguments re challenging. Similarly without all the PCN we cannot check for flaws

OK, you missed the advance warning sign, but you actually drove past the restrictions signs. They would have been facing you on your approach.  It's difficult to give more advice without a view of the signs you approach; GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date to show them.

@Incandescent Sorry I now have a photo of the signage. I have posted a photo of the signage along with all other photos in a separate post further down in this thread.

Links to photos and videos below:

PCN Cover Page

Council Photo 1

Council Photo 2

Council Video Footage

Signage

Warning Signage at Entrance to Road

Hopefully this is everything that is needed to see if there are any flaws. If anyone can spot any grounds for reps, please advise.


My Own POV (not that it will count for much in this appeals process):

I appreciate that I approached the regulatory signs and continued driving therefore my fault.

However, my query is: aren't prohibited zones typically a whole road or at least a significant section of road, as opposed to a small red box (dimensions: approx 1m x width of road) which you can approach from both ends of the road but cannot cross/enter?

Given that the regulatory prohibition signs are roughly 60% of the way down this stretch of road, one is not expecting to drive down here and suddenly reach a threshold (red box) that one is not permitted to cross. Would drivers who were unfamiliar with the CHN but saw the signs be expected to respond by stopping and performing a 3 point turn in the middle of the road (even more so during busy times)?