Author Topic: PCN Code 34J - Bus Lane Hartfield Road. Council refuses to transfer liability to the driver ?  (Read 132 times)

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estevenin

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Hi all,

First message in the new forum, RIP to Pepipoo.

I was driving a hired car back in January and just got informed that I got a bus lane PCN, by the hire company. The company appealed in order to transfer liability to myself, however the council refused, saying that the keeper is responsible, and they have no obligation to transfer it to the driver.

I understand that the idea of doing that, is that they know that the company will pay and charge the driver.

But my question is... is that really legal ? It was always my understanding that the driver was always responsible for whatever breach of the highway code.

Below is the PCN and the Response, waiting for an advice before I call up the hire company (I know that the dates are quite back, I'v just received that from them in early April, and as I have moved house, I didn't receive the first communication). I'm not sure yet if they have already paid, if I go online, the payment option is still "available", but I will ask them.

Just wanted to know if yes or no the council is allowed to do that ?

Thank you all for your knowledge.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 02:32:21 pm by estevenin »

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MMV Redux

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OP---if this is London then the Council are correct. With a hire car and a bus lane contravention there is no facility to transfer liability to the driver,

The best you can do is ask the hire company to allow you to contest the PCN on its behalf.

Before that let's have details of your agreement, length and general terms etc.

Mike

Hippocrates

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Yes as per MM. Be good to get this to the Tribunal.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"


Hippocrates

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Op knows all this as he won the famous key case v Ealing in November 2022.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

estevenin

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Hi all,

Thank you for your kind contributions. I'm surprised and not surprised to hear that at the same time...

I have phoned the hire company, and they said that after the first challenge, they have paid it anyway. So it's game over, there won't be any NOR coming their way.

They also mentionned that usually the PCN gets passed on to the driver, but for some reason this time around they refused... Perhaps Merton council has recognized my name indeed ;D

Such a shame, this was again a useless PCN, 20 meters into the lane before a left turn...

They'v won for this time.

Thank you all again.

Hippocrates

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Hang on a minute.  Why was it not passed onto the driver? This is not acceptable.  What do the T and Cs say?
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

estevenin

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This PCN was issued back in January, they visibly challenged saying "I was not the driver" and passed on my details. The council responded late march (2 and a half months later it seems), after that the Hire company paid the fine, and sent a communication to me early April, then another mid April, and finally another one end of April, to recover that 65GBP amount from me.

I just got informed of those now from the previous occupier in my other house, as I'm in between 2 moves. That beeing said you are right, I was only made aware of this officially early april by post, after their challenge, and their payment. Even if I had received the first mail, it would have been too late.

I believe that in general, the fine is just passed on to the driver for him to deal with it, and they are not used to the council refusing to do it.

As for the T&Cs, I don't have the paper right now it's in my boxes I'll get them back by the end of the month, but I suspect that you might be right, that this should not have been paid before my consent. The contrary is nevertheless possible, I have used a company before that had as a policy to pay the fine regardless, then bill it back to the driver.

I can check for informative purposes in 2 weeks when I get them back, but I won't get into conflict with this company as it's not just a simple hire company, their are a claim company that are handeling my claim against an insurance company after one of their client hit me on the back. They gave me a car back then, whilst mine was to be repaired (but ended up written off).

H C Andersen

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Who is 'they'?

If the authority, there's no provision for them dealing other than with the RK.

If the hirer, then what options are easily accessible to the OP?

I believe that in general, the fine is just passed on to the driver for him to deal with it, and they are not used to the council refusing to do it.

Really. The person to whom the PCN and Enforcement Notices are sent is always liable, the only role for the driver would be to make reps on behalf of the RK, not to become the person liable.

cp8759

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I have phoned the hire company, and they said that after the first challenge, they have paid it anyway. So it's game over, there won't be any NOR coming their way.
@estevenin so they didn't have to pay it but have chosen to do so of their own volition. Sounds like a commercial decision by them, nothing to do with you and you cannot be held liable.

If they ask you to pay I'd tell them to take a hike. I'll be more than happy to act as your McKenzie friend on this one if necessary.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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slapdash

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I would love to see that happen. It is abhorrent that a consumer can be potentially disadvantaged in this way.

It is also an enabler for authorities.

(If it just so happened that I operated a ppc I could certainly see that I might implement an internal policy which involved me reminding finance cos of a non settled charge as a matter of course.)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 03:17:39 pm by slapdash »

cp8759

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I would love to see that happen. It is abhorrent that a consumer can be potentially disadvantaged in this way.
There are now a few cases on the London register where I'm representing a lease company (in practice it's the lessor with an LoA from the lease company), in some such cases TFL's submissions is "but why don't you just pay the penalty and recharge it to your customer?".
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order