3. PCN by tfl police
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:37:11 am
Quote from: roythebus on June 16, 2024, 11:14:42 am
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.

I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.

It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.

I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.
The red lines (and yellow ones, for that matter) apply across the whole highway, including the footpaths.
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote from: roythebus on June 16, 2024, 11:14:42 am
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.
I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.
It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.


Roy, this
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1364-2324

gives insight into the arrangements by which Met PCSOs paid for by TfL are usewd by TfL to enforce on Red Routes.
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:37:11 am


I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.

You have parked on red lines because the lines apply to the road, the pavement and the verge.

You may only stop in a designated bay or because of traffic queues & signals.

your ticket is for stopping on a red route, not parking on the pavement.


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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: facade on June 16, 2024, 01:51:39 pm
Quote from: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:37:11 am


I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.

You have parked on red lines because the lines apply to the road, the pavement and the verge.

You may only stop in a designated bay or because of traffic queues & signals.

your ticket is for stopping on a red route, not parking on the pavement.

So there's no way to appeal or win this case? I wasn't aware about that.
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #19 on: »
@Faust I think there may be plenty of grounds but you need to read the guidance here in full: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Then post the PCN with no redactions, don't use this wetransfer.com nonsense (nobody wants to start opening loads of links), we need the PCN number and the number plate.

The PCN was issued by a MET community support officer but they don't have a uniform that allows them to issue PCNs, so there's a procedural impropriety.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #20 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 10:31:07 pm
@Faust I think there may be plenty of grounds but you need to read the guidance here in full: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Then post the PCN with no redactions, don't use this wetransfer.com nonsense (nobody wants to start opening loads of links), we need the PCN number and the number plate.

The PCN was issued by a MET community support officer but they don't have a uniform that allows them to issue PCNs, so there's a procedural impropriety.

Thanks for your reply. I have uploaded more images with the PCN and the location as well.

Link to the PCN:
PCN images - Google Drive
Google Drive · drive.google.com



And that the Google Maps street view location.

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps. · maps.app.goo.gl


Let me know if that's alright.

Thanks.
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #21 on: »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #22 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:21:23 pm
Quote from: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:09:05 pm
Link to the PCN:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KBHcyMDz5RGXTOZeWYmu-J5oRGsHGxFi?usp=share_link
@Faust you need to change the sharing settings to public please.

Apologies, haven't checked that.

It should be available now for everyone with a link
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #23 on: »
Here are TFL's photos:









Here's an informal representation you can send:

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. There are cars parked on the footpath throughout this road, and the clear impression created by the layout is that the red route restrictions only apply to the carriageway. While ordinarily double red lines would apply to the whole width of the road, the layout on St Helier's Avenue completely contradicts that principle, and does not appear to be sanctioned by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

In truth if there are white bays along a red route, there should not be any double red lines either. If there were no red lines adjacent to the bays, such that red lines appears only where stopping is actually prohibited, it would be clear as day where stopping is or isn't permitted.

As the confusing and unauthorised layout does not adequately convey the effect of The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Merton) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007, the alleged contravention did not occur because the authority has failed to discharge its duties under regulations 18(1) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. TFL will undoubtedly send a fob-off rejection, but this lays the groundwork for the tribunal.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #24 on: »
Thanks a lot @cp8759

All submitted now, wasn't aware I can access to these images.

Quote
Your representation has been submitted.

A response will be sent to the registered keeper / liable party. The enforcement process is now suspended. We aim to respond to you within 15 days. Please contact us in 21 days if you have not received a response.

Representation reference number - GF84653686 - 52395290

If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #25 on: »
Not at that point. There is an amount of guidance on the process just before where you entered your post.

One point is whether the vehicle is registered to you or somebody else.

They have a tendency to reject informal rejections "because they can".
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: Faust on June 17, 2024, 06:20:36 am
If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
It's not an appeal, it's just an informal representation. Much as TFL would like to be judge, jury and executioner, it's not actually up to them whether you have to pay because we don't live in North Korea. It's only if you lose the appeal to London Tribunals that you actually have to pay.

You should probably read this page to understand the full process:
Parking Penalty Charge Notice enforcement process
This section explains the enforcement process for a parking Penalty Charge Notice, where the vehicle was not clamped or removed.
London Tribunals · londontribunals.gov.uk


Details of the appeal process itself are provided here
The appeals process explained
This page is designed to help you understand when you may appeal to the adjudicator and what steps you need to take to do so. When can I appeal? You may only appeal to the adjudicator if: You have...
London Tribunals · londontribunals.gov.uk
but note that where they mention a "Notice of Rejection" that refers to a formal Notice of Rejection that is only issued in response to formal representations made against a Notice to Owner; informal representations against a roadside PCN only lead to an informal rejection which cannot be used to appeal to the tribunal.

After the informal rejection has been received, the next step in the process will be a Notice to Owner and we'll help you with the formal representations.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 17, 2024, 11:12:56 pm
Quote from: Faust on June 17, 2024, 06:20:36 am
If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
It's not an appeal, it's just an informal representation. Much as TFL would like to be judge, jury and executioner, it's not actually up to them whether you have to pay because we don't live in North Korea. It's only if you lose the appeal to London Tribunals that you actually have to pay.

You should probably read this page to understand the full process:
Parking Penalty Charge Notice enforcement process
This section explains the enforcement process for a parking Penalty Charge Notice, where the vehicle was not clamped or removed.
London Tribunals · londontribunals.gov.uk


Details of the appeal process itself are provided here
The appeals process explained
This page is designed to help you understand when you may appeal to the adjudicator and what steps you need to take to do so. When can I appeal? You may only appeal to the adjudicator if: You have...
London Tribunals · londontribunals.gov.uk
but note that where they mention a "Notice of Rejection" that refers to a formal Notice of Rejection that is only issued in response to formal representations made against a Notice to Owner; informal representations against a roadside PCN only lead to an informal rejection which cannot be used to appeal to the tribunal.

After the informal rejection has been received, the next step in the process will be a Notice to Owner and we'll help you with the formal representations.

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system. But hope they will respond within the 28 days.
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Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote from: Faust on June 18, 2024, 10:23:34 am
Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system.
Don't worry about that, that's why we're here. Just let us know when you hear back from TFL.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN by tfl police
« Reply #29 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 01:03:00 am
Quote from: Faust on June 18, 2024, 10:23:34 am
Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system.
Don't worry about that, that's why we're here. Just let us know when you hear back from TFL.

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate your help. Will update this topic when I got a reply from them.
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