Free Traffic Legal Advice

Looking at your dashcam footage..... where in the world was googlemaps trying to take you?
Cos you seem to have been going round in circles.
All the clips are at the same junction?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4889217,-1.8853052,3a,75y,335.68h,71.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPVZ7uBfYTiYu1lIYKdsgJg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
this is the location and direction at clip one...the zone entry sign just visible to the right of the lights and possibly able to argue that it was not clear for a motorist making that turn.
Clip two is same junction but crossing from the right
Clip three.... turning from opposite direction.

Looking back at where the enforcement camera located you. I cannot see any reason for this circling, had you carried straight on and straight over Dartmouth Circus you would have not entered zone and got over to the west side that you seemed to be aiming for.
Which is easy for ma to know being a native of Birmingham but likely not so obvious for a visitor.

Going back to your original post, you were aiming for a hotel on the Hagley Road.
Which one pls.
I should be able to work out obvious route if nothing else and may be able to come up with what Google was up to.
I am not a fan of "following the satnav" as a defence cos it isn't one, drivers are still expected to be aware of signs.
But a combination of stressed by an errant satnav in a strange city, poorly located sign (dashcam footage Car 1) and signs not common or shown in Highway Code may be enough for a sympathetic adjudicator.

Thanks for the reply.

That's not my dash cam footage, I don't own one!  I don't know whose it is, I assumed it was Birmingham's, that they sent some poor sod out to drive around that part of the city in an effort to show where I went. I don't know, but it's not mine.

Like I said previously, I do pay attention to road signs, I've been driving for years before sat navs were a thing! I don't like using them for the most part, but because of my disabilities I've been using Google to help get me where I'm going with fewer incidents of getting lost/ending up somewhere I don't want to be, thus leading to fewer meltdowns. I don't know why it sent me down that left hand turn but it did. The right hand one though I have no recollection of.

The hotel was the Strathallan.

Anyway, I've uploaded to Google Drive. I think I've done it correctly!

Where's this google drive link?

Honestly, you want to upload everything the council has provided.

You need to change the sharing settings to public.

Quote from: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 11:55:37 pm

You need to change the sharing settings to public.

I'd already done it, but didn't realise I had to do it for each new folder! 🤦 I never use it, so it's all new to me. Should work now.

It does....will be reading through later tonight.

Can we see the cover sheet (contents) as well please.
Also confirm that a copy of the PCN and NOR are in there?

I thnk I've solved the mystery of why that turn.
Google maps has just now directed me to make the turn onto Lister Street.
It's not a route I would choose nor expected but seems to be cutting a common bottleneck and slow traffic in the tunnels.....the route it showed last night.
Even without that turn, based on my playing about, you would have carried straight on to a major island, turned left there to go towards city and entered the zone then.
To avoid the zone you would have had to have carried on straight at the major island.
Google maps does indeed seem to take you over to Spring Hill area.
I cannot find any option in google maps to avoid CAZs.... I can avoid tolls, such as London's congestion charge.

This may seem irrelevant but is actually helpful, as are the three pictures and videos showing the approaches to the turn you made. I assume the videos are included to cover the options that you would have had and to show not only the entry signs but the pre warning, blue signs.

I think Birmingham have put all three in to show the approach signs (blue) and the zone entry signs.
But seem to be a little disingenuous with the information provided.
Only one of the three warning signs shown has distance information, the two on the main road more or less saying the CAZ is to the Left/Right...not if you turn left/right you will be entering the zone.
Which the distance on the one sign does imply.
The main road is a busy road BTW, not beyond the realms for the blue signs to be blocked by a lorry or bus.
Now compare Video 1 to the other two and the photos of the junction entry sign.
You approached as per Video 1 (car 1). The video shows a brief glimpse of the side of the sign and it is not clear what the sign says or is. The video stops before the lights change and the car makes the turn, we have no chance to see how clear the sign is.
Vid 2 and 3 show the progress across the lights and that the entry sign is very clear.
The photos of the entry sign are from straight ahead, ie from the viewpoint of Vid 2 and 3, there is no photo of the sign from the viewpoint of Vid 1.
Nor does google streetview show this sign clearly as you approach or static at lights, even with the ability to scan.
The sign does become clear as you make the turn but really too late and no guarantee that a driver will see it, concentrating on the turn and whether the road is clear.
I will point to the CPZ signs on Lister Street..... they are some 50 yards from the junction and on both sides of the carriageway, a far more visible position.
Once in the zone, there are no repeater zones so realistically, if you miss that sign, you have no way of knowing that you have inadvertently entered the zone.

Putting it all together there are the bones of a defence, how an adjudicator would view it is another matter.
A stranger to the city with no knowledge of the CAZ
Signs not in Highway Code or generally known outside of CAZs
Pre warning signs not seen, possibly due to a large vehicle.
Google maps choosing to direct you to a turn in the only direction where the zone entry is not clearly visible
Birmingham seemingly aware of this lack of clarity as this direction is the only one where their car footage or photos do not show the sign. Their car footage (car 1) ending before the turn in contrast to Car 2 and 3.

I thnk I've solved the mystery of why that turn.
Google maps has just now directed me to make the turn onto Lister Street.
It's not a route I would choose nor expected but seems to be cutting a common bottleneck and slow traffic in the tunnels.....the route it showed last night.
Even without that turn, based on my playing about, you would have carried straight on to a major island, turned left there to go towards city and entered the zone then.
To avoid the zone you would have had to have carried on straight at the major island.
Google maps does indeed seem to take you over to Spring Hill area.
I cannot find any option in google maps to avoid CAZs.... I can avoid tolls, such as London's congestion charge.

This may seem irrelevant but is actually helpful, as are the three pictures and videos showing the approaches to the turn you made. I assume the videos are included to cover the options that you would have had and to show not only the entry signs but the pre warning, blue signs.

I think Birmingham have put all three in to show the approach signs (blue) and the zone entry signs.
But seem to be a little disingenuous with the information provided.
Only one of the three warning signs shown has distance information, the two on the main road more or less saying the CAZ is to the Left/Right...not if you turn left/right you will be entering the zone.
Which the distance on the one sign does imply.
The main road is a busy road BTW, not beyond the realms for the blue signs to be blocked by a lorry or bus.
Now compare Video 1 to the other two and the photos of the junction entry sign.
You approached as per Video 1 (car 1). The video shows a brief glimpse of the side of the sign and it is not clear what the sign says or is. The video stops before the lights change and the car makes the turn, we have no chance to see how clear the sign is.
Vid 2 and 3 show the progress across the lights and that the entry sign is very clear.
The photos of the entry sign are from straight ahead, ie from the viewpoint of Vid 2 and 3, there is no photo of the sign from the viewpoint of Vid 1.
Nor does google streetview show this sign clearly as you approach or static at lights, even with the ability to scan.
The sign does become clear as you make the turn but really too late and no guarantee that a driver will see it, concentrating on the turn and whether the road is clear.
I will point to the CPZ signs on Lister Street..... they are some 50 yards from the junction and on both sides of the carriageway, a far more visible position.
Once in the zone, there are no repeater zones so realistically, if you miss that sign, you have no way of knowing that you have inadvertently entered the zone.

Putting it all together there are the bones of a defence, how an adjudicator would view it is another matter.
A stranger to the city with no knowledge of the CAZ
Signs not in Highway Code or generally known outside of CAZs
Pre warning signs not seen, possibly due to a large vehicle.
Google maps choosing to direct you to a turn in the only direction where the zone entry is not clearly visible
Birmingham seemingly aware of this lack of clarity as this direction is the only one where their car footage or photos do not show the sign. Their car footage (car 1) ending before the turn in contrast to Car 2 and 3.

That's all very helpful, thanks. Sadly it looks like it's too late.

Phone TPT in the morning.
Explain that you seem to have done something silly and managed to register for a hearing on papers when you wanted a live hearing.
B polite and a little confused does no harm.
They are usually accommodating.