3. PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #15 on: »
I was just going through the manual, and came across point 14.1.6 below

"Where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the
CPZ (e.g. the CPZ operates from 8 am to 6 pm, and the parking bays from 10 am to 4 pm), the
upright sign should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions, together with
any loading prohibition. This is because the waiting restrictions are different from those shown
on the entry sign, i.e. they do not apply when the parking bay is operational. The sign also
ensures that drivers are aware of all the restrictions."

If I understand this correctly, does it not mean that the sign on the parking restriction which runs from 9am, should also indicate the waiting restrictions of the CPZ (starting from 8am) on it? It probably doesn't change the PCN appeal decision and in any case I have paid the fine now, so it's more of an academic question at this point.
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #16 on: »
The question is - is The Ridgway in a CPZ ? If it is then the unsigned single yellow line times will be on the CPZ entry signs.
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #17 on: »
In most cases councils put in CPZs to unify parking in a zone and often the bay times are the same as the CPZ times so if you are in a zone a big clue is the bay times as to when the single yellows are controlled. Councils do not want to deploy CEOs into zones for different times. 
While you can't assume totally, if you see say resident bays controlled 8.30am-6.30pm you can be pretty confident a nearby yellow is OK after 6.30pm unless it has its own timeplate with different timing.
One bone of contention is that zones can get too big to be sensibly controlled by entry signs passed some way back and that can be an appeal factor.
Councils should have maps on their websites showing zones and times.
As always, checking before setting off is wise.

One thing - there are some CPZs with no parking bays and just controlled yellows. These may not be included in CPZ maps (yes I'm looking at you, Redbridge).

Another instructive point - where you parked was right by a boundary between two zones - the other zone is controlled for just one hour a day to deter commuters - Barnet is very fond of these as obviously they only need patrolling for one hour a day but still do a good job for residents.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 10:29:55 pm by stamfordman »
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #18 on: »
It may not be the beginning of the road, it could be half a mile away or more. The idea is to look at all signs that you pass and then try to remember the signs as you go, not easy if you are crossing London and then fancy stopping on an inviting single yellow. You are much less likely to be caught out in a residents bay and in a pure pay only bay the penalty level is lower £80 instead of £130 in barnet for example.

If others also learn from this your penalty will not have been in vain.
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I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.
Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #19 on: »
Have you paid?

If not and for others, what restriction applies in the bay behind you between 8am and 1.30pm on Sundays and for the bay ahead 8-9am Mon-Sat and how are these conveyed?
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #20 on: »
Thank you for the clarifications. It seems like a minefield - clearly the councils are not incentivised on making this simple. I wonder why we don't have a parking ombudsman who can keep the councils in control!

@HCAndersen do you mean the two bays next to the single yellow?
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #21 on: »
Quote from: fakenews2024 on August 06, 2024, 12:43:20 pm
Thank you for the clarifications. It seems like a minefield - clearly the councils are not incentivised on making this simple. I wonder why we don't have a parking ombudsman who can keep the councils in control!

CPZs are simplified parking/waiting zones and make sense in urban areas where councils need to control all kerbsides.
There is copious legislation and guidance on regulating traffic, and there is recourse to a tribunal for all decriminalised parking/moving traffic contraventions.
There is a Local Government & Social Care Ombudsman that includes transport in its remit.
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #22 on: »
Thanks a lot for your help and for clarifying the rules!
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #23 on: »
Definition of CPZ:
an area—

(i)
in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings (except where parking spaces have been provided, where entrance to or exit from the road is made, where there is a prohibition or restriction on waiting, stopping, loading or unloading indicated by a different sign or where there is a crossing)

But here the parking spaces are not subject to restrictions during the times I've quoted, they are unrestricted lengths of highway.

IMO, you cannot have these within a CPZ and these bays should have single yellow lines(this is what your Traffic Signs Manual is referring to) with these 'no waiting signs' placed above the 'P' parking signs. (TSM Chapter 3, 14.2.6 refers..'where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the CPZ[as here] the [upright traffic] signs should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions....').

Have you paid?
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 07, 2024, 08:08:13 am
Definition of CPZ:
an area—

(i)
in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings (except where parking spaces have been provided, where entrance to or exit from the road is made, where there is a prohibition or restriction on waiting, stopping, loading or unloading indicated by a different sign or where there is a crossing)

But here the parking spaces are not subject to restrictions during the times I've quoted, they are unrestricted lengths of highway.

IMO, you cannot have these within a CPZ and these bays should have single yellow lines(this is what your Traffic Signs Manual is referring to) with these 'no waiting signs' placed above the 'P' parking signs. (TSM Chapter 3, 14.2.6 refers..'where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the CPZ[as here] the [upright traffic] signs should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions....').

I understand you are trying to disqualify the CPZ based on the bay signs? Even though the contravention is a yellow line.

The traffic signs manual is just OTT IMO. The times in the parking bay signs can be what the authority wants and there is no need for combined parking/waiting as the bays are entirely independent of the yellow lines and zone entry signs. Also the manual distinguishes between P&D bays and others and the guidance doesn't apply to P&D only, which is the bay in question here but I think this is a red herring.

IMO where times are shorter in bays than the CPZ it's usually a mistake where the authority has changed the CPZ but forgot to do the bays. Why would they want to allow a free for all in permit bays within the CPZ times?

But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can. In any case here we only have some free parking in a pay bay. 

It's section 12.4 we are talking about.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 11:01:31 am by stamfordman »
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #25 on: »
I think my point has been misunderstood. Herron and Parking Appeals Ltd put paid to 'invalidating' CPZs.

The parking bays are improperly signed and marked. The TSM simply gives a plainer English expression with examples of the definition of a CPZ.

The OP's defence is that they did not see the line, consulted the traffic sign in the parking space and paid.

Had this sign been formatted as required and had the bay been marked as required then they could argue that this would have brought to their attention that waiting restrictions were in effect in the area.

But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can.

@stamfordman, IMO this is incorrect. The definition of a type (a) CPZ is clear. I wonder what source document was used in this post because section 12.4 doesn't exist in the 2019 TSM Chapter 3. Regulatory Signs.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 03:21:26 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #26 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 07, 2024, 03:12:36 pm
I think my point has been misunderstood. Herron and Parking Appeals Ltd put paid to 'invalidating' CPZs.

The parking bays are improperly signed and marked. The TSM simply gives a plainer English expression with examples of the definition of a CPZ.

The OP's defence is that they did not see the line, consulted the traffic sign in the parking space and paid.

Had this sign been formatted as required and had the bay been marked as required then they could argue that this would have brought to their attention that waiting restrictions were in effect in the area.

But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can.

@stamfordman, IMO this is incorrect. The definition of a type (a) CPZ is clear. I wonder what source document was used in this post because section 12.4 doesn't exist in the 2019 TSM Chapter 3. Regulatory Signs.

Sorry it's me who got this wrong and the OP is right - it is section 14.1.6 in the current manual.



But the OP here didn't see the yellow line and just thought was in a pay bay so I can't see you have a point here.
If the pay bay had a yellow line and a no waiting plate for the 1 hour before and 1 hour after the pay times this would indeed bring the bay into the same hours as the CPZ but while this may serve to alert to a wider restriction it doesn't mean much to someone paying to park.
There's also the point that the guidance says 'apart from meter bays' which this is - it's not a shared use bay (although the other smaller bay on the other side of the small yellow is shared use but is the same times as the CPZ).
I can't work out the logic of the guidance - a signed bay is a signed bay and I don't think we've ever seen one co-signed with CPZ waiting where longer - that's mainly because authorities rarely use different times for bays in resident zones (but do mix bays for different purposes such as taxis - but that is different). Barnet is one of the few I've seen that has some shorter res bays than CPZ but I think they are errors.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2024, 07:10:04 pm by stamfordman »
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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #27 on: »
Whether the bays in front and to the rear being improperly marked and signed is a question. But the fact remains that if the restricted parking times are correct, then it follows that both ahead and behind him the OP should have seen single yellow lines. As regards ahead a single yellow line at least 20m long.

This could not have been missed had it been there.

But it wasn't.

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Re: PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road
« Reply #28 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on August 07, 2024, 07:12:33 pm
Whether the bays in front and to the rear being improperly marked and signed is a question. But the fact remains that if the restricted parking times are correct, then it follows that both ahead and behind him the OP should have seen single yellow lines. As regards ahead a single yellow line at least 20m long.

This could not have been missed had it been there.

But it wasn't.

You've lost the plot with this but I've now lost the will to live... 
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  3. PCN: Barnet, code 01 Parking in restricted street, Hodford Road